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Post by geneweigel on Jan 4, 2008 11:30:51 GMT -5
I was focusing on the cross in Ekbir and miniaturized in the Paynims. What the hell does that mean? I looked it up and its a Sarcelly (French origin) but I can't seem to attach to any historical area as its all over the place. Perhaps that is their leftover Baklunish culture as opposed to Ket's "true faith" of LAWFUL NEUTRAL which seems to be spread everywhere but Ekbir. Look at the alignment map and then look at the Sarcelly cross: Then look at the migration: Then read the Ekbir entry: Their could be an old religion and a new one from this obvious pattern.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 4, 2008 20:38:06 GMT -5
Maybe thecross came from the Oeridians--rather like the swastika was originally an old symbol before the Nazis got hold of it...?
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 4, 2008 20:45:49 GMT -5
Here's my head of Bakluni gods--note his symbol:
HALIMAB (Creation, Law) Greater Deity ARMOR: -10 MOVE: 15" HIT POINTS: 400 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 2 DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10 - 100 SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 120% SIZE: L (12') ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral or good SYMBOL: Scimitar over three stars PLANE: Arcadia CLERIC/DRUID: 25th lvl cleric FIGHTER: 12th lvl fighter MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 20th lvl in each THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: Nil PSIONIC ABILITY: Attack/Defense Modes: S: 24 I: 25 W: 25 D: 22 C: 25 CH: 24
This is the supreme deity of the Bakluni Pantheon, the father of Istus, Dorgha Torgu and Xerkway. He is the giver of Bakluni law, and all are expected to abide by his tenets. Even the more true neutral-aligned of that folk pay some homage to this deity. It was Halimab who stripped Dorgha Torgu of his powers and rendered him a quasi-deity after that god caused the Rain of Invisible Fire to strike the Suel nation, an act of divine intervention that was unsanctioned by the Bakluni gods lest the Suel deities retaliate! This he accomplished through the use of his unique power of Divine Edict which enables him to manipulate the reality (such as bestowing or taking away power) of any other deity in the Bakluni pantheon. If forced into combat, Halimhab wields a +5 staff which he may transform into a +5 scimitar at will. In either form, this weapon inflicts 10 - 100 points of positive energy damage. These attacks will obliterate any normal undead that he strikes. He may be hit only by weapons of +5 or better. Halimab appears as older, muscular man with dark skin. His eyes are jet-black and piercing, and his hair and beard are black with gray streaks. He generally wears a white dishdasha robe and a grey jubba coat.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 4, 2008 21:09:48 GMT -5
I just located an old letter from Gary from March, 1988 wherein it is stated that outside of Tharizdun, Rao was the most powerful of the deities listed in the Greyhawk gazeteer.... Hmm.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 4, 2008 23:12:20 GMT -5
Maybe thecross came from the Oeridians--rather like the swastika was originally an old symbol before the Nazis got hold of it...? What do you mean?
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 5, 2008 8:06:29 GMT -5
Maybe that cross was an older symbol, later usurped.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 5, 2008 12:39:45 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what you mean.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 5, 2008 18:17:43 GMT -5
If I understood your query, you were wondering where that cross emblem on the Paynims and Ekbir coats of arms came from, so I suggested that maybe it was originally Oeridian (who were also migrating up in that region), and the Paynims and Ekbir incorporated the symbol.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 5, 2008 20:52:48 GMT -5
I was suggesting that it was perhaps a symbol from the Baklunish Empire.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 0:16:45 GMT -5
That could be; Ekbir was founded by fleeing Bakluni and the Plainsmen are certainly nomadic remnants. The fact that Ull does not incorporate that symbol is perhaps that it turned from "The Law" and embraced chaos instead...
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 9:26:29 GMT -5
And what about Zuoken (the Bakluni demigod)? His designation appears redundant and unsupported: "Physical and Mental Mastery". First of all, if you go to Xan Yae's description, you see it has "Mental and Physical Mastery over Matter..." Now this makes sense. Also, Zuoken's alignment is true Neutral--no sign of the "Lawful" that "mastery" (through discipline...) would imply. And why a second Bakluni deity of "mental and physical mastery" anyhow? I wonder if there was an editing error and the "Twilight and Stealth" of Xan Yae were actually meant for Zuoken? The "Stealth" could still fit, but "Twilight" seems a bit out of place for a deity of mental and physical discipline. The twilight-colored raiments of Xan Yae might have been added to the description after the mistake had already been incorporated and not noted... Any theories?
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 12:39:19 GMT -5
How about it, Gene? You ever wonder about this one?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 6, 2008 13:02:35 GMT -5
Makes deadpan face.No... Seriously, I often think that he's a servant of Xan Yae that they dropped the "L" off of. I bet thats the case. In general the Baklunish are weird little gods from "over there" that never fit anything once a spotlight was cast on that entire "Western Undeveloped-tonia" area. If we start cataloguing it too much it'll lose its exotic taste. ( The Moore/Mona people (I call them "mooronas" for short. ) did an Islamic anti-icon take on that area and it just made me want to puke. How can you have anti-icon mentality in an S&S fantasy world? Fucking dumb.)
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 13:26:37 GMT -5
Official Gary word: Don't remember after 30 years; don't care... Well, i gotta respect that! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 6, 2008 13:37:20 GMT -5
Must have been a Blume thing.
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 13:40:57 GMT -5
Heh! It's aggravating to Gary when those who have known him for awhile "dwell on the past"; but for me it's like the song: "Make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other is gold"! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 6, 2008 15:10:44 GMT -5
Once you start sounding derivative or bland he gets turned off.
He could have had a complex array of never defined deities plugged in to Zuoken's neutrality for all we know.
The fact that at times Gary had approved of the assinine and idiotic Roger Moore's antics back in the day just showed that he was a very busy man and couldn't get around to finishing what he had wrought for money. He was too busy making money outside the creative loop and these days he's been denied that specific creative "return". So...all things considered he can never look at Greyhawk the way we can ever again.
We must do it for him in the way that he would. But not as "busy Gary" who approves "Moore-isms" (NH gods, astral minutiae, etc.) we must be well-organized, thorough, thoughtful, interesting, compelling, and above all interesting in every line, entry or number like the "gamer turned writer Gary" that defines "true Greyhawk".
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 22:12:08 GMT -5
I still think it was all just a typo; especially since Gar-Bear never really developed the pantheon. I mean, Zuoken never even got mentioned in 1E outside of the Box Set and in the deity list of T1-4! ^__^
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Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 6, 2008 22:15:28 GMT -5
Of course, one could go with the 2E vision that Zuoken was one of the Nine Imprisoned Demigods in the Castle! HAH!!!
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 7, 2008 10:14:14 GMT -5
I like the way that I wrote "interesting" twice.
Now that is a classic example of gut response!
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