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Post by geneweigel on Jan 7, 2008 10:17:54 GMT -5
Of course, one could go with the 2E vision that Zuoken was one of the Nine Imprisoned Demigods in the Castle! HAH!!! Speaking of that can we cook up a name that is the "antithesis of editions"? Something that says this is "Greyhawk as it could have been" or something like that.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 8, 2008 21:20:26 GMT -5
Looking at the T1-4 module listing of the deities (where Cyndor is mysteriously absent), we see the descriptions of Xan Yae and Zuoken transposed. Yep; I'm going with my assumption in my campaign--Zuoken was a Neutral demigod for Bakluni Thieves, of shadow and stealth; and all of the Mental & Physical Mastery stuff was meant for Xan Yae. It all comes together...
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2008 1:10:50 GMT -5
You'd have to rip more out of her as in addition to being an 18th level monk she's a 14th level thief-acrobat/4th level thief and: Who gets the lovers? Zuoken makes his ninja saving throw and leaps towards the exit...
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 9, 2008 18:12:57 GMT -5
You see, I'm contending that that paragraph was "shoe-horned" on to accomodate the "Twilight, Stealth, etc. that accidentally got added on to Xan Yae's name instead of Zuoken's where it belonged. Really, thieves and dusk (and lovers...) have little-to-nothing to do with "Mental and Physical mastery" when you think about it...
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 9, 2008 18:14:26 GMT -5
...It's rather like the "positive energy" thing that was a typo on the Mummy's description and then became "canon". Not in my world, Amigo!
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2008 19:07:19 GMT -5
I think it may just fit into a big "ninja hooey" mentality so you might be splitting hairs for nothing there. In regards to what you're doing (finding new gods in old gods), I don't even use World of Greyhawk anymore (as I prefer to use my own ideas these days) so I can't make any recommendations for a "path of least resistance" development of Greyhawk to save time and energy. If I see a need for a new god in my campaign I just throw them in there these days regardless of continuity. Thats my mindset on real religion anyway. They don't need to make sense as they're all based on subscribing to singular POVs. So for each individualistic and charismatic holy man you have yet another whole deity from the same deity. So deities with multitudinous aspects and forms are par for the course on my table. Just keeping things weird playing D&D is a priority sometimes. In regards to this project I have to remain somewhat reserved in this aspect because if its GH then it has to be somewhat restrained for consumption. However this "shitload of gods in many forms" mentality that I've always had for playing D&D is a POV shared by Gary as well in his games. So with all this in mind I'd prefer to see a spread of Baklunish deities all over the place in the form of new gods before the introduction of a variant Zuoken.
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Post by Scott on Jan 9, 2008 22:32:41 GMT -5
At this point, I'm happy to leave Xan Yae and Zouken as they are, and work on expanding the pantheon. What I know is that there are four Baklunish gods listed, three are female, all are neutral. GREATER GODS Istus Fate, Destiny N F LESSER GODS Geshtai Lakes, Rivers, Wells N f Xan Yae Twilight, Shadows, Stealth, Mind over Matter, et. al. N F DEMI-GODS Zouken Physical and Mental Mastery N m
Tuco the monk is a Bakluni from parts unknown, but I'd guess Ket.
Any other Baklunish gods or characters I'm missing?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 10:07:37 GMT -5
The Bakluni bar in GHC's foreign quarter in NIGHT ARRANT called the Lotus House is almost exactly the same as the Kettish bar in the SEA OF DEATH. (NOE: Xan Yae's symbol is the black lotus)
In SEA OF DEATH, he goes to a city in Ket then goes South to the Sea of Dust the majority of his encounters are "Arabesque" the entire time as he mostly deals with barbaric nomads along the way when he encounters the fake Eclavdra and Obmi. There is a lot of detail on the interactions of the tribes but its mostly barbarian "arab" shit even the time in Ket isn't representative as the story revolves around getting going with savage nomads to the Sea of Dust. The Zeifites that do appear seem to be "slumming it" from their description.
The real name "smooshing" seems to be drawn from all over Western Asia in the Medieval period under Islam however like Eastern Oerik avoids "Jesus" mystery universal type religions in favor of ancient type gods they must avoid their historical "modern" religion as well. ("Living" Greyhawk didn't quite grasp this.) So the culture isn't going to give any clues.
"Dorgha" (from "Dorgha Torghu") is kind of an Indian borrowing of Durgha (which having just watched an old episode of the Hanna Barbera live action cartoon THE NEW ADVENTURES OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN on YOUTUBE called "The Eye of Doorga" which featured a statue of a male deity coming to life for sacrifices just shows that the name is an easy "exotic borrowing".)
I can imagine that they have a lot of gods here but where to start is anybody's guess. There has to be a Phoenician Dagon type (By the sea perhaps) as well as a Anu/Enlil/Marduk/Ra/Baal Hadad fighter type kicking the butt of an elemental dragon monster. Geshtai's, Istus' and Xan Yae's favor in the east gives them the import niche reserved for all the universal mother types that were favored imports in antiquity (Ashtarte/Ishtar/Isis/Cybele etc., ) so thats done already. Of course, there were a ton of those so a few more wouldn't hurt! Plus, there has to be quite a few rotten bastards in there or whats the point? Right?
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2008 12:25:52 GMT -5
Al'Akbar was Baklunish, the most exalted lawful good high priest of the Paynims in the days following the Invoked Devastation.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 12:54:11 GMT -5
I felt likeI was overlooking something with that Ekbir/Paynims heraldry.
The cross symbol may be the holy (or personal) symbol of Akbar's deity. Thats why Ekbir is named after him (and is LG) and the connection to the Paynims. the 8 pointed star definitely is a holy symbol though so maybe its Akbar's personal crest.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 12:55:25 GMT -5
Or the crest of followers of Al'Akbar
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 13:00:57 GMT -5
The Sarcelly cross I mean. Being a crest. Or perhaps its a symbol of yet another LG deity.
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2008 13:19:50 GMT -5
How's this look for a partial outline of the Baklunish pantheon? These gods are old Turk/Mongol/Tartar?etc. types that resemble the Paynims/Baklunish to me. I imagine as they became more civilized, deities with more civilized aspects would be added to the pantheon. Obviously, it's a work in progress. Names vould be changed. We could use GTs god in place of Tengri, etc.
GREATER GODS The Earth Goddess Earth NG f Erlik The Underworld, Disaster, Plague NE m Istus Fate, Destiny N f Tengri The sky, Wisdom, Authority LG m Yer-Sub Nature, Living Things NG f Water Water, Primordial Chaos CN f The Wind God The Wind CN m
LESSER GODS Ai The Moon N(g) f The Air God Air NG m Geshtai Lakes, Rivers, Wells N f Koyash The Sun NG m Umai Hope, Benevolence NG f Ut-Anon Fire CG m Xan Yae Twilight, Shadows, Stealth, Mind over Matter, et. al. N f
DEMI-GODS Chulpan The Morning Star N m Cloud m Daughter of Erlik Daughter of Erlik Daughter of Erlik Daughter of Erlik Lightning m Rain m Rainbow NG f Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Seven Elders Star God N m Sheppard’s’ Star Star God M f Son of Erlik Son of Erlik Son of Erlik Thunder m Timer Kazyk The Polar Star, Travel N(g) m Tornado Tornado, Destruction CE m Urker A Star God N m Water on Earth f Zouken Physical and Mental Mastery N m
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 13:53:25 GMT -5
Looks believable.
Erlik sounds Germanic. That was the name of the thief in the film SORCERESS who was slding down the greased pole naked towards a giant spike.
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2008 13:57:54 GMT -5
Oops, I forgot a few. I pasted them to the bottom of the list.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 14:00:55 GMT -5
Hey, how about a concept like a proud "city god" like Marduk that had his city destroyed in the Invoked Devastation? Now he wanders the Oerth as a quasi-deity with no worshippers left. And we have no reason for documenting his existence....
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 14:06:28 GMT -5
Oops, I forgot a few. I pasted them to the bottom of the list. Tornado Tornado? Sounds like a real tornado's tornado deity to me. It looks like a Baklunish list so far.
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2008 14:10:52 GMT -5
Tornado isn't really his name, just a placeholder.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 14:20:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, I was just joking!
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 14:23:34 GMT -5
I'll think about a Baklunish deity tonight and try to give it a whirl. I should really get back to the Oerids as well (I forgot about those).
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