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Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 14:45:33 GMT -5
I know, it just jogged a memory.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 12, 2007 14:46:50 GMT -5
I suppose the Thrommel encounter might be a better example.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 12, 2007 14:58:23 GMT -5
Whoah! Alright, so rather than keep going we've got to discuss development in PMs or e-mail only. Becuase I almost posted a really really good example! Bad idea!
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Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 15:31:55 GMT -5
I thought about making a protected forum for the discussion.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 12, 2007 16:01:37 GMT -5
Thats a good idea. It'll be less inconvenient than pms or e-mail and be in one place for reference.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 12, 2007 19:17:54 GMT -5
Is this it? It was G Hawk (or something like that) earlier, right?
BTW, It seems like my name on the side of my posts seems colorless now.
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Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 19:35:51 GMT -5
This forum is only accessable by Oligarchs. An oligarch's name will display in gray.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Dec 12, 2007 19:54:15 GMT -5
I am interested in something on a much smaller scale. The development of Saltmarsh as was left up to the DM in the U-series. Of course, this was done by the 3e writers in the DMG II, but as I believe I've stated here and elsewhere, I suspect that they never actually read the source material. I mean, it's supposed to be a 15th century equivalent English fishing village of 1500-person population. They put a massive pyramid temple of Boccob in the middle of the town of their version... LOL.
My version of Saltmarsh would be similar to what Gary did with the town of Garham CZ:Yggsburgh, or similar to what Len did with L1. Something like this I could tinker with for fun, if you guys think it would be of any worth or interest.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 21:40:17 GMT -5
I like to delve into historical issues... so, here's a question that occured to me: Was the 'Age Of Great Sorrow' a reference to the decline of the Great Kingdom? I can't remember...
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 12, 2007 22:02:15 GMT -5
The 'Age of Great Sorrow' was what the Savant-Sage of Greyhawk -- the alleged writer of "Volume III: A Catalogue of the Land Flanaess, being the Eastern Portion of the Continent Oerik" -- identified as commencing in 213 CY, or 857 OR. It's not clear what began commencing in this year... but I have always suspected it was the beginning of dark ages, from a scholar's point of view: roads becoming less safe, the beginning of civil wars and the break-up of centralized authority, the start of the Great Kingdom's wane... because the next event listed in the chronological highlights is 320 CY, or 964 OR: "Nomads appear in the North, outer dependencies of Aerdy gain sovereignty." Under the description for Furyondy, in 898 OR: "the heir to Viceroy Stinvri (the viceroyalty had become hereditary some years before) was crowned in Dyvers as Thrommel I, King of Furyondy, Prince of Veluna, Provost of the Northern Reaches, Warden General of the Vesve Forest, Marshall of the Shield Lands, Lord of Dyvers, etc. The adjunctive states were soon lost, but the central core of the kingdom was sound and viable and has persisted."
213 CY might be looked at as a scholar placing an arbitrary ending date to an imagined Golden Age of a single authority and language spread across most of the Flanaess -- not unlike the way certain medieval authors sometimes wrote about the bygone Roman Empire. Maybe 213 CY represents the apex of Aerdy's power or geographical influence, or the year that in hindsight, had some event that began a low and protracted decline.
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Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 22:06:02 GMT -5
That's what I'm thinking, but I don't have a reference off the top of my head.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 22:13:25 GMT -5
Cool! I was thinking along those lines as well... So you were saying that you were re-assessing the age of Iuz; to approximately what date? I concur that my original date from the subjugation of Perrenland by Iggwilv between CY 468 and 478 can't be old enough, as he ruled for "ages" longer than any mere mortal. But it seems as though if he ruled his territory as far back as CY 1 then his forces and the Great Kingdom's would have had some sort of major confrontation... so somewhere in between?
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 12, 2007 22:16:10 GMT -5
If anything has huge texts its probably best avoided. For example, any more information on the "Lerara" is something that I never want to see. It was a one shot deal in its best form as it was. However, something detailing a hidden aspect of another group just as slightly "with light brush strokes and room for development" (as Gary says frequently) is something that I might want to see. He had that "Lerara bit" as somewhere over there with no real time line attached and its perfect as it is. Thats what I'd like to see. Another example would be the breeding grounds of Iuz. Isn't it better to produce a new creature from there with an afterthought reference than to actually show some kind of layout and history to the breeding grounds? If there is history, I'd like to see it short, pertinent to a new idea only, and somewhat questionable in source. This pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly. I'm more interesting in doing some creative stuff, than getting too bogged down in deciding the outcomes of past modules and advancing the timeline very much. I'd rather see the development of untapped settings and new concepts, than of existing or past modules. Hints and asides are better than long exposition. I'd agree that using the 1983 boxed set and "Greyhawk's World" articles in the Dragon is the right touchstone. The Dragon articles detailing some of the battles and political developments might make some good adventure backgrounds or launching points.
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Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 22:21:15 GMT -5
I think that the territory he ruled in the past may have been much smaller, maybe actually held in check by the Great Kingdom, or his own incompetence. I have a large gap of time where Iggwilv is out of the picture, but arriving circa 425, and shortly after, in 479, "Might of Iuz grows". So maybe Iuz hadn't achieved demi-god status yet, and he ruled his backwater kingdom that wasn't going anywhere because of the strong presence to the south and his chaotic nature. Iggwilv shows up and gives him a boost, and his kingdpm expands.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 22:23:23 GMT -5
...Perhaps initially, he has no idea who his mother and father were?
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 12, 2007 22:37:27 GMT -5
I'd vaguely imagined that before Iuz was a demigod, as a mortal cambion he was a cleric of Orcus, maybe a cleric/assassin, and this led to rumors that he was perhaps a byblow of that Demon Prince. It could also tie in with his affinity to skulls, and his large demonic and monstrous form. Certainly it's possible he didn't know his true origins for a long time... Isn't this hinted at in the Gord novels? I'm not sure about that one. But anyway, when Thrommel I was crowned, the Great Kingdom did control some region known as the "Northern Reaches" that could have represented lands north of the Whyestil Lake -- perhaps that did not extend very far into the Howling Hills, where Iuz was a kind of bogeyman or ruled a mere kernel of what would become his later realm. When Furyondy "soon lost these adjunctive states" that might have been the beginning of Iuz' expansion and others becoming more aware of him as a ruler, and thus the later ruling "the lands from the Howling Hills south to the Whyestil Lake longer than any man can live" reference makes sense. He'd have controlled that region from soon after 254 CY and onward...
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 12, 2007 22:48:56 GMT -5
I am interested in something on a much smaller scale. The development of Saltmarsh as was left up to the DM in the U-series. Of course, this was done by the 3e writers in the DMG II, but as I believe I've stated here and elsewhere, I suspect that they never actually read the source material. I mean, it's supposed to be a 15th century equivalent English fishing village of 1500-person population. They put a massive pyramid temple of Boccob in the middle of the town of their version... LOL. My version of Saltmarsh would be similar to what Gary did with the town of Garham CZ:Yggsburgh, or similar to what Len did with L1. Something like this I could tinker with for fun, if you guys think it would be of any worth or interest. Yeah, I'd like to see a village of that size developed. I think what is missing in game material overall is developed examples of rationally thought out villages, towns, keeps, castles, etc. -- that's why so many of us keep hearkening back to the Keep on the Borderlands, Hommlet, etc. for flavor, and why we were so hungry for Yggsburgh when it came out.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 12, 2007 23:31:01 GMT -5
I had a village designed for a "group developed adventure" that was being developed piecemeal (Grognard's Tavern?). I took the village chore and called it "Grogham". There was some hyper aggressive person (the one behind OSRIC I believe) who was on some "alien D&D frequency" so I had to get the fuck out of there before he destroyed everything that I worked on. He immediately wanted his previously written bad adventures to absorb my finished village and as soon as I showed it to him, he was turning it into lameness. I told them that I had enough and I was taking my village with me! And I did!
I was aiming for a low level D&D village and I've even playtested it about twenty times so far with strangers too.
All I have to do is attach an adventure to it.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 10:20:21 GMT -5
I think I have anold village for Saltmarsh lying about with a small chapel to Procan, maritime shop, tavern, general store, cottages, docks, etc., but I was never quite satisfied with my version... ^__^
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 13, 2007 15:43:22 GMT -5
Hooray! Gary was in da house!! I owe you a bottle of Cognac, ol' Bear! Anyhow... As I see it, my aggenda in gaming is to advance A) The 1E system of AD&D, 2) The Dangerous Journeys system (I just checked, and this whole network of Mythus players is still out there!! and 3) Lejendary Adventures! Long live the Big G and all who play his games!!! ^__^
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