GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 9, 2007 8:59:41 GMT -5
Yeah, parts of the Great Kingdom material had rough edges. For example, I always had a problem with a Demonic Knight of Doom commander weilding a Mace of Disruption, so I altered it to "disrupt" good creatures...
A Furyondy/Veluna alliance would have made the most powerful nation-state on Oerik I believe, and greatly altered politics--and perhaps Iuz and his minions would've been driven forth... but I can't see Gary meaning for Thrommel to die out-of-hand either. My group(s) never managed to finish the whole module, but the players who made it to "the vampire" generally wanted to stake him---save for a couple of seasoned skeptics who smelled something fishy about such a "quiescent" undead encounter! I had to fix the whole Fragarach thing there too, so that it made sense. I placed Tyrfing (chaotic evil) in the temple somewhere also--the very bottom EEG chamber, I think, but nobody ever got it. I think I only had three or four artifact-type swords ever in play at once. Nobody ever unearthed the Sword of Kas, but an Elven character managed to accidentally find the Sword of Ralfenson--formerly wielded by a Ranger foe of Kas, and Blackrazor was stolen by a fighter/thief and used. Wave and Whelm were returned to their owners, so they weren't an issue. I did have a couple of Holy Avengers in use by Paladins and an Unholy Reaver carried by my one Anti-Paladin...
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 9, 2007 9:08:56 GMT -5
I guess that part of the problem with Greyhawk was that there were too many "cooks" wanting to go off with their own visions of a world. It's great to have many creative minds doing their own thing, but for the sake of across-the-board playability in a given campaign there needs to be certain rules and guidelines that are followed. For example, I can tell at a quick read that the Suel deities are not Gary's--there's just certain inconsistencies there that don't add up. You can tell (as mentioned previously) that certain modules (T1-4 and Q1) didn't end quite the way they had been going... These things confused folks at the time. And then it didn't help when 2nd edition Moore/Sargent/Cook et al. started changing things around...
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Post by Scott on Dec 9, 2007 9:17:11 GMT -5
My last session saw Gary Welsh's fighter character acquire one of the most powerful swords I've ever given out as a DM; it's a +4 sword with some special abilities. He was a new character who benefited from joining up with some higher level characters, and he was the only character whose alignment was a match for the sword.
I once rolled a random treasure trove that resulted in a holy avenger and a sword of sharpness. The party that found them sold them both.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 9, 2007 9:29:43 GMT -5
So essentially, we're left with the framework and some odd square-pieces that have to be hammered into circle-holes.
These include:
1) Adding in the EEG encounter area to the ToEE and evidencing the enmity between that entity and Zuggtmoy/Iuz who dared to construct a complex of their own over its grounds.
2) Justify the Lolth connection in Q1, when up to that point it was evident that the Giants and Drow were followers of the EEG.
3) "Fix" the Ivid thing into being more of a "lesser of two evils"--Ivid is decadent and evil, but Xaene/Zayene is probably more-so.
4) Greyhawk City and Castle Greyhawk completed (ignore other prior attempts... ).
5) Shadowlands finished.
6)Other-planar creatures added in (dreggals, dumaldums, etc.)
7) Greyhawk Wars/From The Ashes never happened...
8)Tharizdun is not EEG!
What else? I think I'd leave the Moore and Lakofka deities, although one might have to re-tailor them a bit...
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Post by Scott on Dec 9, 2007 9:55:51 GMT -5
Given the option of using the EEG in either of the settings Gary had intended, I would prefer to use the EEG in the D series, and keep the ToEE as is.
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Post by grodog on Dec 9, 2007 17:00:58 GMT -5
The problem is more complicated because Rob's creation of the golden league makes it seem as if everything was fine until Irvid went nutty and Gary's GK is contrary making it generations of bad stuff going on. I always assumed that the Golden League = the Iron League, and leave it at that. |
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Post by grodog on Dec 9, 2007 17:04:47 GMT -5
Given the option of using the EEG in either of the settings Gary had intended, I would prefer to use the EEG in the D series, and keep the ToEE as is. I'll second that. |
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 9, 2007 20:31:02 GMT -5
Well, I'll third the EEG motion (as mentioned, the finger was pointing at the EEG all along and Gary planned the EEG under the Temple as an optional but not necessary encounter to make things easier for the players), but I'd still tie the Lolth adventure in just because I liked Dave's concept of the web linking the various planes. And the best that could be hoped as far as the EEG(s) went is sealing them off from their ancient temples--no way any players should be able to defeat them!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 0:14:33 GMT -5
The problem is more complicated because Rob's creation of the golden league makes it seem as if everything was fine until Irvid went nutty and Gary's GK is contrary making it generations of bad stuff going on. I always assumed that the Golden League = the Iron League, and leave it at that. It would make more sense if it WERE the Iron League and the entirety took place in the past around the time the Iron League was formed. If you get into details about it with Rob, he'll take you to China and back with behind the scenes detail of the task of getting handed the GK area and you'll still not have any answers about the continuity of KNIGHTS OF DOOM article or the conflicts between his "good just gone bad GK" versus Gary's "all bad for a long time GK".  |
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 1:00:23 GMT -5
Yeah, if you undid Q1 or even just circumnavigated it to feature the EEG in his own thing then throwing him in TOEE would seem repetitive. However, leaving that TOEE "Lolth mess" undisturbed is going to make our ears ring! Why did Lolth's guys have EEG-like designs? There has to be some mention of that. |
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Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 7:33:57 GMT -5
Gene is correct in regards to Rob's Great Kingdom and Maze material; it is good stuff, but it doesn't mesh with earlier material. Since the "demon-seeing" house of Naelex took the throne over a hundred years ago, the Overkings have been "insane or demon-ridden or both". Ovar isn't evil in the Maze series.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 9:01:00 GMT -5
The whole Xaene cum Zayene cum Two-Headed Xaene thing was a fusion of what GK was to be and light "brushes" from the Kalibruhn campaign then turned generic in CU then reimagined in FOI to make Kalibruhn elements distinctly GH. So sorting it out is something that only Rob can do and I don't believe he ever wants to either. In a hypothetical timeline of TSR products we may have even seen Rob's world factor into the picture as well. So Rob's GK is an alternate world in its entirety no matter how you slice it and we're just left with the contradictory Gary GK entry as the premise.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Dec 10, 2007 9:02:26 GMT -5
I recently (6 months ago?) picked up the CU version of the Maze from Noble Knight Games but have yet to read it. Looking forward to it.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 9:37:33 GMT -5
Back in 2002, I actually did attempt to sort it all with Rob to do a Great Kingdom adventure for the Greyhawk website but due to coming up shorter than I thought there wasn't much there to work with and much that he insisted should be avoided. So I began to redo it from whole cloth. So I had a pile of contradictory "Weigel GK" info in my brain that compounds complications even further (for me at least ). |
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Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 9:54:50 GMT -5
I had an idea for a Great Kingdom campaign that included the Maze series, but I never got to run it.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 10:18:35 GMT -5
Remember the discussion over the See of Medegia's evil religion or rather what deity does Spidasa serve to make him the Censor and therefore making it the state religion of the Great Kingdom?
I don't recall why there was a debate at all. Its Nerull. Its can't be anybody else, right?
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Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 10:26:25 GMT -5
Nerull is a bad choice. He doesn't fit the alignment. He doesn't fit the mold for a head of civilized state type patron. He racial origin doesn't fit.
I'd go with the devil mentioned in Fate of Istus, or else some other unnamed big LE entity.
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Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 10:35:35 GMT -5
Well, the alignment does match the general alignment of the area, so maybe a devil isn't a shoe-in. If you wanted to use one of the detailed gods, Incabulos would be the closest fit, but kind of a stretch. I'd make up somebody new.
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Post by grodog on Dec 10, 2007 10:46:24 GMT -5
The whole Xaene cum Zayene cum Two-Headed Xaene thing was a fusion of what GK was to be and light "brushes" from the Kalibruhn campaign then turned generic in CU then reimagined in FOI to make Kalibruhn elements distinctly GH. So sorting it out is something that only Rob can do and I don't believe he ever wants to either. I do have a copy of the 1983 RPGA tourney version of The Maze of Xaene (sic), and I think I've posted details on this on my site; if not, I'll summarize and do so  |
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Post by grodog on Dec 10, 2007 10:48:13 GMT -5
Yeah, if you undid Q1 or even just circumnavigated it to feature the EEG in his own thing then throwing him in TOEE would seem repetitive. However, leaving that TOEE "Lolth mess" undisturbed is going to make our ears ring! Why did Lolth's guys have EEG-like designs? There has to be some mention of that. I always liked Merric's explanation for Lolth's involvement (summary: she's Ecladra's patsy!): www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=165 |
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