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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2007 9:27:11 GMT -5
Let's assume that everything published post 1985 is Bizarro Greyhawk. Using the game related material as a foundation, where do you think the setting was headed? What do you think the setting would look like? Do you think Gary's assumed outcome of the ToEE was that Thrommel would have been rescued, and Furyondy and Veluna would be united? What about the war Iuz and Iggwilv were planning, or the war that had just started with the Great Kingdom? It might be easier to publish material if your political landscape didn't mirror somebody else's IP. Advancing the timeline a bit and taking these things into consideration might help in that regard.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 7, 2007 10:42:08 GMT -5
For starters, you'd have to figure an outcome for big T that didn't end all things.
Here's one: "Minimize" it into a new invoked devastation or rain of colorless fire. Set up a flood perhaps.
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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2007 11:49:14 GMT -5
I wouldn't include the novel material, just game specific stuff.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Dec 7, 2007 12:00:34 GMT -5
Even Gary has noted many times over that the Gord yarns were for entertainment purposes alone, not meant to reflect a "game version" GH chronicle of events. That being said, I drew more from the tone and presentation of the Free City from those books than any other resource.
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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2007 12:24:16 GMT -5
I doubt the story would have had the same ending had Gary still owned Greyhawk.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 7, 2007 13:36:43 GMT -5
I just don't know if Gary would have seriously advanced the timeline that much. He always seemed more into the modular thing than developing adventures that told stories and built upon assumptions about previous events that players could have been involved in. I certainly wouldn't want to place any bets on Thrommel's fate -- if you pressured me, I'd put my chips on him getting staked. Idly mentioning "a sharp check had recently been dealt to Lolth" seemed to be more like EGG's style. I would guess he would have used the war between the Great Kingdom and Iron League as a background or launching point for tactical scenarios, battle rules and that he would have continued to create adventures set in various regions, planes, etc.
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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2007 13:55:00 GMT -5
I don't know. Gary seemed to be moving towards an evolving campaign. Early things were modular, but towards the end the subject became more setting level, and certain events were assumed to have occured (Drelnza being killed). I don't know in what form it would have occured, or at what frequency, but I feel we would have seen updates.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 8, 2007 10:50:34 GMT -5
We're all over the map on this one. While we're all sure it wouldn't have gone the way it did without Gygax we have no idea which decision that he would make for continuance. Jeff Easley cloaked adventures and Mentzer type finishings are a sure bet however that doesn't seem very appealing to me at all. The chance that we may have even seen a heavily reigned in Carl Sargent as a "Gygax finisher" are even likely as well. So we're going to have to have the best of the best situation in this instance.
Here's some sort of known hypothetical products:
Great Kingdom Adventure. Based upon the Greyhawk's World Knights of Doom articles combined with Maze of Zayene/Fate of Istus Rauxes mini-adventure. Introduction to the forces of the Golden League puts new face on GK as a potentially savable realm.
Stoink Adventure. Gord's adventures through here are most likely derivative of the material or completely unattached to what the final product would be.(?)
Shadowland. This would have been popular. We can see Gary's contributions to this in the novels and were were probably the most relevant part anyway as SW doesn't have a good track record for design in my opinion.
City of Greyhawk. This is an anomaly that I'm too close too. If I could see Shook's map then that would answer everything however as he is now gone forever from the rpg scene and didn't want to let me see it anyway, we'll never know if the COH novel map was the same "true Greyhawk" (i.e. the one that we would have accepted as such).
CIty of Verbobonc/Veluna adventure. Based upon FATE OF ISTUS's Verbobonc mini-adventure and general snippets out TOEE there seems to be a pattern of many vaguenesses making a "ghost product" seem likley.
Mordenkainen's series. The pattern that the WG series was doing says "tell them more about Mord and his buddies while giving them an adventure on top of info" so I can imagine new sites/agents with each adventure. So this may or may not have been the platform for all of the above. (As an aside, Gary's unwillingness to share one iota of Co8 material means that this was/is fully developed and has been waiting publishing format forever. This my pet theory anyway.)
Rob's "list" would have never seen fruition in the aftermath of the hostile takeover period even if it hostile takeover-free because he would have been busy finishing Xaene and City of Greyhawk. The Wild Coast might have come out in the mid 90's following that pattern.
Good speculation on these "knowns"? Or stilted?
Anyway once we have these speculations over these hammered into place then speculation over the future might be easier.
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Post by Scott on Dec 8, 2007 11:30:50 GMT -5
Rob's maze series confuses me a bit. The Ivid character doesn't really mesh well with what we know of the GK. It makes it out like he really isn't such a bad guy.
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Post by grodog on Dec 8, 2007 11:34:59 GMT -5
Here's some sort of known hypothetical products: Stoink Adventure. Gord's adventures through here are most likely derivative of the material or completely unattached to what the final product would be.(?) I still have vague hope about being able to get more of the Stoink remainders out the GH fanbase, FWIW. Shadowland. This would have been popular. We can see Gary's contributions to this in the novels and were were probably the most relevant part anyway as SW doesn't have a good track record for design in my opinion. The Acaeum has a description of the catalog entry for this. I had preordered it back in the day, and it's possible (though unlikely) I may have my cancellation/refund letter somewhere (I tossed a bunch of ephemera years ago, alas...). City of Greyhawk. This is an anomaly that I'm too close too. If I could see Shook's map then that would answer everything however as he is now gone forever from the rpg scene and didn't want to let me see it anyway, we'll never know if the COH novel map was the same "true Greyhawk" (i.e. the one that we would have accepted as such). Tell me more about the Shook map you're referring to Gene Mordenkainen's series. The pattern that the WG series was doing says "tell them more about Mord and his buddies while giving them an adventure on top of info" so I can imagine new sites/agents with each adventure. So this may or may not have been the platform for all of the above. A good idea, regardless! Good speculation on these "knowns"? Or stilted? [snip] Anyway once we have these speculations over these hammered into place then speculation over the future might be easier. Credible, in most cases, I think, Gene!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 8, 2007 14:16:12 GMT -5
Ask him, he was the cartographer of Greyhawk. I ask him and he says nothing. That means that there is something.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 8, 2007 14:57:33 GMT -5
Rob's maze series confuses me a bit. The Ivid character doesn't really mesh well with what we know of the GK. It makes it out like he really isn't such a bad guy. Yes, that is a big flaw in Kuntz era of the GK. When I thought of the Great Kingdom and "Xaene", I pictured something completely different from MAZE OF XAENE. This is the GK to me: Nude chicks laughing maniacally in the streets, litters of bloated debauchery, etc. And this has been going on for generations. Rob breeched this continuity long before the CREATIONS UNLIMITED module in the Dragon #59 (MAR 1982) article GREYHAWK'S WORLD: THE GREAT KINGDOM AND THE KNIGHTS OF DOOM when he made it seem "Irvid" (his new name for Ivid) a victim which was going to be saved by the Golden League of the Great Kingdom. So MOZ followed suit without correction. I never played GK as an instant cure town so MOZ would have to be a double trick where Zayene is actually controlled by Ivid (or some weird ending) to make it flush with what I view as GK. That said, Rob's stuff is very atmospheric which in no way subtracts from the adventure's "feel" as "good" Greyhawk.
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Post by grodog on Dec 8, 2007 15:26:51 GMT -5
Just because Rob's Zayene controls Ivid doesn't mean, necessarily, that Ivid can't also still be evil----the PCs rescue him only to have him resume his debauchery (and perhaps order their heads off for having seen His August Magjesty in such a down-trodden condition....).
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 8, 2007 16:43:48 GMT -5
The problem is more complicated because Rob's creation of the golden league makes it seem as if everything was fine until Irvid went nutty and Gary's GK is contrary making it generations of bad stuff going on.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 8, 2007 17:07:08 GMT -5
All just speculation on my part...
Stoink could have been a launching pad for another peripheral campaign (as with Hommlet/Nulb), maybe for mid-level characters, to do some city adventuring, interact with bandits and brigands, and explore around the Bandit Kingdoms region. My guess has always been that "Wasp's Nest" was going to be an unsavory town with a lot of intrigue and skull-duggery, but also a potential base for adventures in a Flanaess hinterland where modules could be added and/or DMs could fill in the gaps -- a smaller and easier to produce product than the daunting and definitive City of Greyhawk.
The Shadowland module may have been kicking off a series of modules exploring other planes, demi-planes, etc. This could have been the beginning of the development of entirely new settings and 'worlds' -- primarily through modules rather than rule books or gazetteers?
City of Greyhawk and the Dungeons of Castle Greyhawk (and T2) seem to have been huge projects that sat on the back-burner for many years as EGG turned his pen to smaller, and easier to tackle, or perceived as more necessary projects at the time: putting out more modules like WG4 and WG6, "Dungeonland" and "Beyond the Magic Mirror", rules expansions Monster Manual II and Unearthed Arcana, his Gord novels, working on movie deal, etc. From our point of view now, certainly we'd rather have seen the City and Dungeons (and T2) produced first -- but EGG had no way of knowing his "time was almost up" during this era.
I'd like to think if the hostile take-over never happened, the WG series would have continued with Gary (and possibly Rob) detailing more personalities, hints of behind-the-scenes villainy, and possibly some big confrontations with Iggwilv, Iuz, Tharizdun, etc. or their high-level minions. If Iggwilv is back, per WG6, then there might have been follow up adventures with the players dimly aware of machinations behind the scenes, with more interactions with the "greats" like Tenser, Mordenkainen, etc. and the ability to affect the outcome of monumental but veiled conflicts by retrieving or destroying artifacts and relics, preventing or effecting the release of powerful beings, etc. Maybe we would have even seen a published version of Mordenkainen's Obsidian Citadel near the Sepia Hills, and/or some tactical scenarios involving battle rules for miniatures like sieges of Furyondian castles or Iuzian dark fortresses...
Rob's Wild Coast I'd like to think would have been akin to the Stoink product, in that it would provide detail of a town or two, some sites to adventure in, and some more micro-detail of a handful of Darlene hexes: also as the basis for further modules set in that region.
Incidentally, Yggsburgh is basically what I had in mind as far as the regional scale and general idea for Stoink and Wild Coast -- a mini-campaign, with some local geographical features, adventures, NPCs, town details, a platform upon which to develop and launch a campaign.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 8, 2007 18:25:16 GMT -5
All just speculation on my part... Stoink could have been a launching pad for another peripheral campaign (as with Hommlet/Nulb), maybe for mid-level characters, to do some city adventuring, interact with bandits and brigands, and explore around the Bandit Kingdoms region. My guess has always been that "Wasp's Nest" was going to be an unsavory town with a lot of intrigue and skull-duggery, but also a potential base for adventures in a Flanaess hinterland where modules could be added and/or DMs could fill in the gaps -- a smaller and easier to produce product than the daunting and definitive City of Greyhawk. It could be anything. Yes, it seems that was what they were planning. I have a feeling that those characters may have subsided for the "NEW" but may have cropped up here there. Yes, the orders of battle suggested that there would've been something like that. It wasn't what I had in mind for any of that but I'm not going reiterate that here.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 8, 2007 22:23:31 GMT -5
Well, we know that there was to be some advancement from the Greyhawk articles in the Dragon; Gary doing the Greyhawk region, Rob doing another part, Len Lakofka doing the far east, Frank doing Aquaria, etc. But I figure it more as they were setting up certain situations (and providing modular adventures along the way that tied in--the whole evolving Tsojacanth/Tharizdun thing or Ivid/Xaene situation for example); as well as planar settings (like Steve and Gary working on the Elemental and Shadow Planes) and then outcomes would be left to individual DMs---instead of dictating: "OK, Iuz has done thus and so, and the Great Kingdom did this and all of Oerik is in chaos..." That's where I saw it going. And we know that Gary had another Monster Manual coming that would have had a healthy dose of other-planar creatures, so that would probably have figured in some way too...
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 8, 2007 22:31:08 GMT -5
Oh, and the Tharizdun "ending the world" thing--Gary stated that was a metaphoric lead-in to Mythus (look at the very end again...) Had AD&D remained in his control, that certainly would not have happened. He has also cryptically stated that the "end" with Entropy and Tharizdun was not the 'finale' it appeared to be... ^__^
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Post by Scott on Dec 9, 2007 8:10:39 GMT -5
I think the Maze series would have to be re-worked a bit to fit better with the Great Kingdom. It shouldn't be too hard though. The party is charged with killing the tyrant of the GK, and if they can manage two birds with one stone, so much the better.
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Post by Scott on Dec 9, 2007 8:15:49 GMT -5
I really would have liked to see where Gary was going with the Iggwilv/Iuz thing. I know in his campaign, The players had discovered the chamber where Thrommel was hidden, but had not released him yet when the campaign came to an end. I wonder what the status of Furyondy/Veluna would have been going forward.
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