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Post by geneweigel on Apr 10, 2008 9:25:18 GMT -5
I noticed in the past few weeks with the passing of Gary that not much was mentioned in regards to Greyhawk's "true" version. The same latecoming folks are spooning out the same flat decrees of ownership as always. You know: implications that GH has some value outside of "the creator of D&D's ideas for an ideal game world" or implications that someone contributed something post-Gygax that was as insightful to the game, or implications that Gary was behind the pre-takeover failure of TSR, etc., etc.,etc. Of course, we know with absolute certainty these insinuations are bullshit.
The state of the GH concept now has a different feel: one of needed remembrance. Shouldn't these new stakeholders step aside now for a retrospective into the value of real Greyhawk? If nobody is talking about GH reforms now then what chance does the true GH legacy (as a key towards playing AD&D) have in a hundred years or so?
Why do the fans have to continue to suffer the indulgences of being relegated to a mere footnote?
I know Gary wanted to continue creatively doing something else (Learth, Zagyg, etc.) but his dismissals (while true to his character) still never diminished the need for history to get the story straight on D&D and World of Greyhawk. At least for those that cherished and valued his major contributions to the sword and sorcery genre. I would have to have some kind of bias to deny that his work was more than just seminal footnotes for today's takes on gaming.
The Robert E. Howard revival took forever to scrape off the ambitions of other writers. Years and years of reading rewritten material went by before somebody woke up and noticed that it wasn't the same.
I suggest as a fan that Gygax's fandom needs to rename his creations and stick to it.
D&D and Greyhawk need new names for the fans. That way a schism can be created for future generations.
We've seen "Lake Geneva Campaign" and "Gary Hawk" but these designative appellations are not fitting anymore to the true nature of what is necessary in this instance. "LGC" often refers to what others did on their own and "Garyhawk" often refers specifically to Gygax novels. What is necessary is a fixed title that is descriptive of what Gary did for the fans and thats it. Something that can never be added to without skepticism and will always be there for the true fan to dismiss confusion with a word like a pre-loaded crossbow. Perhaps even spreading the appreciation to a new generation.
And sweep the corrupting whims of the IP holders away from what the fans cherish to this day.
Well?
G&G? Gasgolhawk?
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 10, 2008 14:39:00 GMT -5
Gygaxian Greyhawk is probably easiest and best. Quite simply, I do not recognize the current ownership as anything more than fans like you or I writing Greyhawk material. They can put on all the airs they want. I'm not going to waste time arguing with them.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 10, 2008 15:06:30 GMT -5
Well, thats because your a wizard, Gary.... Alright, Gene's lost his mind...Seriously, you're one of the few who still "gets it" because you've been validated as someone who sees the loss beyond the physical loss. Which can't be said for all those who don't "get it", or don't want to "get it" or the far bigger vast majority of those who "lost it". Sheesh, what the hell is this "it" hes talking about?Alien overlords!!??!?!?!
ALIEN OVERLORDS!!!!!
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GT
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Post by GT on Apr 10, 2008 20:00:30 GMT -5
Well, youse guys are right... as long as the likes of Hasbro or Milton Bradley or what-have-you own the IP, "Greyhawk" will never be Greyhawk. And there are still those who think: "well, it went into print under the T$R logo, so we MUST make it all fit! As Gary would say: "Balderdash!!" ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 6:59:17 GMT -5
Youse? Thats the wrong inflection. Its "yez" or "yahs" in my vernacular. As in "Yahs baastids!!!" Or "what are yez doing?" "Youse" is more like suggesting a group representative but initially saying "you" and switching gears mid-word. I think its a shortened version of "yahoo" where the term originally cropped up but its been reinterpreted on the street into a general term.
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Post by Scott on Apr 11, 2008 7:18:08 GMT -5
The lack of a plural for 'you' is one of those things that bug me. In Pittsburgh, the slang 'yins' is used, usually by those who have a very strong Pittsburgh accent. Example: "What are yins doin' tanight?" The answer would sound something like this: "Goin' dahn Sou' Side 'n' at." 'Dahn' is a hard one to try to spell. It's like down with all traces of the 'w' sound missing. Sou' Side is South Side with the 'th' dropped, and usually spoken like a single word. Such butchers of spoken English are known locally as 'Yinzers'.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Apr 11, 2008 8:01:37 GMT -5
Around here, it might be: "What are ya (pronounced: "yuh") goonna be doin' tonight?", although many would actually say "you"... ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 8:58:57 GMT -5
There are so few pockets of local dialect now that its almost sad. My wife almost exclusively speaks what she calls "American" with a slight Brooklyn twang and refrains from the local wordage. I use words like "membah" in more intimate friendly settings but will use "remember" when discoursing formally. She hates that:
Its "REE"! "REE"! "REE-member"! Not "membah"!
I never hear "earl" for "oil" anymore and vise-versa but the old folks when I was young said that all the time. The "earl burner" or "yez goils". Or what about "fresser"? Thats an old one that nobody says but me anymore. Meaning "your exclusive preference". Like a "hoowah fresser" is someone who refuses to settle down and echoes the later phrase "what are you a fag?"
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 9:05:21 GMT -5
Around here, it might be: "What are ya (pronounced: "yuh") goonna be doin' tonight?", although many would actually say "you"... ^__^ Thats funny, I recall a Marvel Comics WHAT IF? comedy issue where a parody was called WHAT IF all the Marvel Superheroes moved to the midwest? and it had Spiderman and Captain America saying'"Whaddaya gonna do tonight?" "I dunno whaddayou gonna tonight?"
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 9:12:19 GMT -5
When I was in Connecticut the Northwest by the Massachusetts border they said large sandwich as "grinder". Now I was used to "sub" but mostly "hero" but it wasn't the word they used. It was the way they said "grinder" that annoyed me. They said it with an open-mouthed and buzzing sound like they were saying "nahhh" in a nasty way. That was weird.
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Post by stranger on Apr 11, 2008 9:36:58 GMT -5
When I was in Connecticut the Northwest by the Massachusetts border they said large sandwich as "grinder". Now I was used to "sub" but mostly "hero" but it wasn't the word they used. It was the way they said "grinder" that annoyed me. They said it with an open-mouthed and buzzing sound like they were saying "nahhh" in a nasty way. That was weird. And what's wrong with grindahh? (Although I am a little north of that and we pronounce the "er" in my area.) I will say I have never seen hero on the menu though. Of course in the town I grew up in we had things like the keller of my eyes is brown and Eric is my cousint.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 9:41:29 GMT -5
As I was thinking some more on what I originally wrote above, Gary often referred to D&D as his "pinched red wagon". Maybe there can be a spin on that "Advanced Pinched Red Wagon"? And perhaps even call DJ his "Pinched Red Cadillac"... "Crest Fallen" might be be good indicative for "true" WOG.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 9:44:52 GMT -5
When I was in Connecticut the Northwest by the Massachusetts border they said large sandwich as "grinder". Now I was used to "sub" but mostly "hero" but it wasn't the word they used. It was the way they said "grinder" that annoyed me. They said it with an open-mouthed and buzzing sound like they were saying "nahhh" in a nasty way. That was weird. And what's wrong with grindahh? (Although I am a little north of that and we pronounce the "er" in my area.) I will say I have never seen hero on the menu though. Of course in the town I grew up in we had things like the keller of my eyes is brown and Eric is my cousint. It was that nasally buzzing and they also said it rapidly too. I forgot that part. How about "Ahhtn Hahhtfid" for "Art in Hartford"?
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Post by Scott on Apr 11, 2008 9:48:01 GMT -5
We get a lot of 'cousint' around here too. Slippy in place of slippery is local slang. A sub/hero/grinder is called a hoagie around here, and is always baked, unless you are at a national chain. Sub can be used to specify a cold sandwhich, but they are rare around here outside of chains like Subway.. Soda is called pop. Rubber bands are called gumbands.
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Post by stranger on Apr 11, 2008 9:55:51 GMT -5
Subs are always cold and Grinders can be either. (Here anyway)
I don't know about red wagon, that falls into the slang group around here. Growing up if someone said they were going to fix your little red wagon in pretty much meant paddle your &$$.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 10:11:33 GMT -5
Hoagy Carmichael? Its funny there are a few phrases that I say like "Yo! What the fuck!?!?" that means the same thing but can be taken in different ways. It still means "what are you up to?" and it can be bad or good depending on the context in which its said. It has to be said as a harsh exclamation always but it has to be interpreted by the receiver. Its kind of like the scene in "Goodfellas" with Joe Pesci. You don't know whats going on until he smiles then you're still not sure until the good cheer is continued. Thats the way a lot of street language was used in Brooklyn. Supeficially hostile but ultimately very social.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 11, 2008 10:13:56 GMT -5
Subs are always cold and Grinders can be either. (Here anyway) I don't know about red wagon, that falls into the slang group around here. Growing up if someone said they were going to fix your little red wagon in pretty much meant paddle your &$$. I've heard that but I've never interpreted it. Man, he was a witty character that Gary...
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Apr 13, 2008 8:40:19 GMT -5
Hoagies are cold and grinders are hot, period -- never a "sub" (only Subway has "subs"). Philly invented the hoagie so Philly gets to decide what it's called. We also invented "Yo!" and "youse" as the plural of "you."
The plural of "you" is "you all" btw. I find it funny when I hear people trying to make it doubly plural -- like "all y'alls". ;-)
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2008 10:35:41 GMT -5
The whole big sandwich thing is more complicated in this end because of fading culture (can't get a good slice of pizza anymore, can't get a good bagel anymore, etc.) so there is little "localized chauvinism" anymore either. If I tote "old New York delicacies" I'm mostly working on memories. There actually is no place that i know of that makes heros like the old days. It was very distinct and all over the place. Now its gone. Technically, the big sandwich concept that I've tasted abroad is more akin to what they're serving up in NYC these days as "heros" but something is missing and I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is. No cartoon dagos making them anymore?
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GT
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Post by GT on Apr 13, 2008 11:25:31 GMT -5
Although I have to admit that the best sandwiches are out East, I also have to contend that the best pizza is from Chicago! That's biased towards the fact that I prefer "deep style" however, and if you prefer thinner then the East might be your best option. Perhaps at LGGC we can scoot down to Chi-town and sample their wares! ^__^
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