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Post by Scott on Oct 12, 2009 14:05:11 GMT -5
That is a good question, Gene. I don’t know if Gary ever detailed a LG equivalent.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 12, 2009 14:20:47 GMT -5
It would be interesting to figure it out. Medegia-Georgia? Ratik-Quebec? Those seem obvious but would places that don't fit be non-existent or just miniaturized into the landscape like I can imagine perhaps Texas shrunk into the Wild Coast?
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Post by Scott on Oct 12, 2009 14:23:33 GMT -5
You'd have to see Gary's home campaign map. Most of those published Greyhawk names weren't on it, so they wouldn't have that real world equivalent.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 12, 2009 14:29:41 GMT -5
Yeah, it might make more sense with the GNOME CACHE version (unless that was an earlier even more different attempt at divergence away from the old club map.) before the backwards migration/settling concept.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 20, 2009 7:36:04 GMT -5
Heh... I like that angle. They should be looked as a wacko extremist cult. But in a world with sorcery, calling up ancient evils can be a serious threat. It makes me think of the "The Hour of the Dragon," with the priests calling up a lich-wizard Xaltotun from long-dead Acheron. It's a pulp tradition.
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Post by Scott on Oct 20, 2009 8:00:54 GMT -5
[overwritten/modified by mistake]
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 21, 2009 13:50:21 GMT -5
I don't think they'd get much support just on the basis of being Suel. Reactions would vary. Here's what I think they would be, in order of commonality:
I. "Grand WHAT Empire?"
II. "Those wacko jungle-cultists are giving us Suel a bad name. I only wish their secret brotherhood was a little more secretive."
III. "Hey! Yeah, I'm of the superior race, too! Give me your coins, you dark-skinned dogs!" -- this last reaction being from the sort of ignoramus who was going to attack and rob you anyway.
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Post by grodog on Oct 21, 2009 20:17:59 GMT -5
You'd have to see Gary's home campaign map. Most of those published Greyhawk names weren't on it, so they wouldn't have that real world equivalent. That map would be fun to check out!
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2010 12:49:08 GMT -5
What do you think of the Gord Greyhawk Scarlet Brotherhood having Nerull, a NE Flan good, as their patron? Yes, I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before, but I can't find it, and I'm bored.
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Post by Falconer on May 24, 2010 14:20:03 GMT -5
Nerull is, I think, one of the hardest parts to reconcile between the Gord novels and the AD&D materials. IIRC, in MM2 Hades is ruled by Anthaxus the Oinodaemon. And Nerull’s home plane is Tartarus per WoG ’83. But the Gord books make him a sort of Tharizdun Jr., where he is sort of the ultimate evil guy pulling all the strings and behind everything that is happening the whole series. He is lord of Hades and also rules Gehenna and Tartarus, and not only does the Scarlet Brotherhood follow him, but the Great Kingdom and the Horned Society as well. He manipulates Iuz and Demogorgon.
Well, if you like Nerull as the ultimate evil god like that, then I’m sure you can make sense of it somehow. It doesn’t quite work with the Nazi analogy, though. The Nazis, of course, worshiped Wotan as god of the Germans. But you could make the case in a fantasy setting that Wotan was certainly extinct by the 20th century, and they were really following Satan. So it kind of works out. Another angle is that they worship Tharizdun and consider him a Suel god, so Nerull is just playing off that since he has the objective of releasing Tharizdun.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2010 14:31:07 GMT -5
There were a lot of elements in the Gord stories that threw me off. You're right, this is one of the bigger ones. If you go by the more Gord angle, that the racial superiority thing is just a ruse, then Nerull doesn't seem that bad, but I think I prefer the good old, Nazi-esque SB.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 24, 2010 21:00:04 GMT -5
The map on page 44 of the WoG Guide indicates the Scarlet Brotherhood is LN. But I've always thought of them as LE or LN(E).
According to the "Gods of the Suel Pantheon" article in Dragon # 88, two goddesses worshipped in the SB are Syrul, who is NE(L) and Wee Jas, who is LN(E). I guess I kind of imagined an occultist core of Nazis, studying death magic and putting themselves through all kinds of rigorous tests -- a monkish sort of priesthood worshipping Wee Jas (like Hel). And then, under that ruling class, the thieves and assassins who follow Syrul (Germanic crone-witch or Hecate). Definitely, a vibe of "Nazis in South America" going on.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2010 21:26:47 GMT -5
It's important to remember that the listed gods were not meant to represent the Suloise, Oeridian, Baklunish, etc. pantheons. "Only deities of the central Flanaess are detailed here"; basically, the pantheon of the Flanaess. I think this gets overlooked a lot, and I often see the listed gods pigeon holed into roles that a more racial specific, unlisted god could fill better. There should be a multitude of more racial/cultural gods whose cults vanished, or nearly vanished, after the cataclysms/migrations. I would say some forgotten evil god from the Suel pantheon would fit best.
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Post by Falconer on May 24, 2010 23:42:01 GMT -5
In the context of the Gord books, multiple deities could be the “avatars” of a single daemon or devil or whatever. So like Infestix could possibly be worshipped both as Nerull and as Wee Jas, for example.
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Post by Scott on May 25, 2010 6:57:35 GMT -5
If you go with a more universal pantheon, then multiple avatars is natural, but I don't know if I like that angle for the Greyhawk gods. Infestix and Nerull were never thought of as seperate entities were they?
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Post by Falconer on May 25, 2010 12:19:17 GMT -5
Correct, when Infestix was first introduced it was said that Nerull was his “avatar,” so that connection was never not there. I just meant that perhaps Nerull isn’t his only “avatar”. It IS mentioned that Iggwilv is also Louhi from the Kalevala, for example.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 25, 2010 19:11:56 GMT -5
There should be a multitude of more racial/cultural gods whose cults vanished, or nearly vanished, after the cataclysms/migrations. I would say some forgotten evil god from the Suel pantheon would fit best. I don't disagree with you, I was just pointing out that in that article (written by Len Lakofka and evidently, approved by EGG), Wee Jas and Syrul are two deities worshipped in the Scarlet Brotherhood. It doesn't preclude the possibility of others.
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Post by Scott on May 25, 2010 20:57:58 GMT -5
I'd say anything Suel has a good chance of being on the good side of the Brotherhood.
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Post by Scott on May 26, 2010 9:42:57 GMT -5
The Scarlet Brotherhood grew out of a militant religious order and they've embraced evil as the only way to achieve their goals. I see something like a Suel equivalent of Hextor as their patron, IF they have just one. And like Hextor, I see him as having two visages. One as the Suloise ideal, fair, blond, blue eyes, etc. and a more monstrous appearance when angry/fighting. Maybe I’ll try to flesh it out over the next day or two.
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Post by Merkholz on May 27, 2010 1:33:40 GMT -5
The question is, do the LE Brethren really worship the Ultraevil Tharizdun or merely intend to harness that awesome power? Could the Brotherhood perhaps have evolved into atheists where their belief is that through training and discipline (i.e. monks) a normal human being can become "omnipotent" and the gods are just a few steps ahead? Remove their worship of gods and leave it as a cultural expression rather than a religious one. That way, their pursuit of Tharizdun is only a search for power.
M
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