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Post by Scott on Dec 24, 2004 10:55:31 GMT -5
Per the Guide, Thrommel was kidnapped in 573 CY. Using the information in the intro to T1 in conjunction with the Guide, it's 579 when the party first rolls into Hommlet. Six years just seems like a long time. Would rescueing him at this point have the expected results? He's been in stasis, does that mean he hasn't aged? Would Jolene still be waiting for him? Would the plans for uniting Furyondy and Veluna be derailed after 6 years? Using the magics available on both sides (detecting and hiding) would it be known that the prince still lives? How long was Wesley gone in The Princess Bride? Scott
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 24, 2004 10:59:56 GMT -5
How long was Wesley gone in The Princess Bride? Five years IIRC. However, I think the situation is different. Mightn't Jolene be married off in the mean time to cement some other alliance than the one between Veluna and Furyondy?
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Post by Scott on Dec 24, 2004 11:16:35 GMT -5
Five years IIRC. However, I think the situation is different. Mightn't Jolene be married off in the mean time to cement some other alliance than the one between Veluna and Furyondy? It's possible, but I see a kinship that exists between the folk of Furyondy and Veluna that I don’t see with other nations. I think it more likely that if she were married, it would be to one of the more important noble families of Furyondy. Scott
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 24, 2004 11:27:42 GMT -5
Well, you never know. If the Flanaess is anything like mediaeval Europe then all of the royal families are kin to a certain degree. The Hohenzollerans, Hapbsburgs, Romanovs, the Stuarts, etc., were all related. You're probably right, but I wouldn't rule out another marriage of convenience.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 24, 2004 11:28:59 GMT -5
I guess it also depends on whether you think that Thrommel and Jolene were "merely" engaged, or whether they were formally betrothed. They might even have been married by proxy.
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GT
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Post by GT on Dec 26, 2004 8:09:05 GMT -5
Thrommel would not age in stasis, and Jolene was probably younger than he anyhow. At any rate, a potion of longevity would fix any "lost years" if desired, and barring any better marriage option in that region, I don't think Belvor or Hazen would readily give up their aims...
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 26, 2004 11:31:19 GMT -5
Or she may have been married to a bugbear due to the raids from the invading forces of the newly born Iuz allied state: the Demonic Principality of Elemental Evil!
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 26, 2004 18:30:42 GMT -5
Thrommel would not age in stasis, and Jolene was probably younger than he anyhow. At any rate, a potion of longevity would fix any "lost years" if desired, and barring any better marriage option in that region, I don't think Belvor or Hazen would readily give up their aims... I don't think the problem is one of aging, but whether or not Jolene (and her family) would wait around for Thrommel. He might even have been presumed dead, in which case Jolene would be freed from any promise of marriage. Such might make Thrommel's return much more interesting, especially if he doesn't stick around to ask the PCs how long he's been in stasis.
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Post by Scott on Dec 26, 2004 23:10:01 GMT -5
Based on the text, the part about the good characters coming to invite the PCs to the ceremony where Thrommel will be pledging himself to Jolene, it could be assumed that none of those sort of entanglements were intended. They could be added, and it would be interesting, but it seems that it was intended for Jolene to still be available. Which is another reason why six years seems kind of long. Also, 573 doesn't seem like a likely year for the event. I don't know if it would be something Iuz would be involved with so soon after escaping his imprisonment. At that time he would probably still be consolidating his realm. It is possible the Temple leaders could have done it, but I imagined that they weren't organized enough to pull something like that off until Iuz started to take a more active role a few years later. I'd say 576 or 577 would be more likely. Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 26, 2005 20:43:18 GMT -5
I'm sure everybody's heard the version that places the blame for Thrommel's kidnapping on the Scarlet Brotherhood, working for Nyrond. Personally, I'm under the impression that this line of thinking springs from a misunderstanding of the Greyhawk timeline. I've always believed it was Iuz and the leaders of the Temple. Does anybody like the Scarlet Brotherhood/Nyrond idea? Scott
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 26, 2005 21:05:10 GMT -5
Well, it is counterintuitive... I like that.
But there really doesn't seem to be a good motivation, there. The Scarlet Brotherhood is so far removed from Furyondy and the action around the T series. Personally, I have always imagined the SB having more of a presence and interest in the rim around the Azure Sea and the eastern Aerdy states.
Anyway, the date of Thrommel's kidnapping doesn't conflict with the date of Iuz's imprisonment. So, Iuz could have done it. If the "action" of the T series is interpreted as being 579 CY (ten years after the fall of the Temple), then that means Thrommel was kidnapped c. 573 CY.
I suppose if you want to reconcile the two versions (of EGG hinting that it was the SB versus a more intuitive assumption that it was done by Iuz or his followers), you could work something out. Perhaps some SB spies, agents or assassins, working in the northern realms, managed to kidnap the Provost-Marshall -- and cut a deal with the minions of Iuz. And thus, he ended up in the Temple... as a "ghastly jape at the forces of Good."
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Post by grodog on Jan 26, 2005 21:58:15 GMT -5
FWIW, the version that I heard/read/whatever was that Mordy and the Circle of Eight kidnapped Thrommel, perhaps at the behest of the SB and/or Nyrond.
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Post by Merkholz on Jan 27, 2005 7:22:48 GMT -5
I don't think that the timeline should be read as the definitive answer to whom kidnapped Thrommel. It might be SB but no one knows for sure. All that is known is that Thrommel ended up in ToEE. If it wasn't Iuz that snatched Thrommel away then it must have been someone willing to trade with Iuz and in return someone that Iuz could do business with. My guess is that it was the Horned Society that did it. Their lands are better suited for missions into Furyondy and their domination of Bandit Kingdoms ensures that they have plenty of sneaky thieves to pull it off. Whether or not it was the idea of the Horned Ones in the first place is anyone's guess.
A better question would be what the reason for keeping Thrommel alive in the ToEE? Ransoming? Human shield? Demonic humor?
M
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GT
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Post by GT on Jan 27, 2005 9:24:25 GMT -5
The Nyrond-connection came from an interview with Paul Stormberg, which was very enlightening; but in an earlier Q&A session with the World of Greyhawk Fanclub, Gary simply said that the Scarlet Brotherhood kidnapped Thrommel and sold him to Iuz. This makes more sense as (1) The Scarlet Brotherhood is essentially Lawful, and it is dubious that they would go back on a contract with Nyrond (2) It would be senseless for Nyrond to institute such an act in the first place, as they are not at odds with Furyondy, and both nations stand as bastions against evil forces--why risk any more of a multi-front battle than already exists?? (3) Obviously, Iuz stands to gain the most by delaying the alliance of Furyondy and Veluna, so he is the most likely employer. Gary simply laughs at the whole debate when I bring it up... ^__^
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Post by Scott on Jan 27, 2005 17:58:46 GMT -5
Iuz definately has the most to gain. After being recently released, and putting much of his realm back together, and intending on expansion, disrupting the unification of Furyondy and Veluna would be a top priority. There is an intriguing reference to there being no love lost between the Knights of the Heart, and certain Nyrondel noblesse though. As far as rationalizing why he is kept alive, my theory is that once he's dead, you can't hide his spirit. Then, a clone spell could be used, and Thrommel's back. Scott
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NyrondFuryondyLove Fest
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Post by NyrondFuryondyLove Fest on Jan 28, 2005 8:44:23 GMT -5
Fellers,
I don't have a problem with Nyrond being involved with the abduction of Thrommel. IMC Nyrond and Furyondy are bitter rivals whose courts and mercantile interests frequently collide.
From Nyronds point of view, a combined Furyondy-Verlunan state would tilt the competitive balance in favor of F-V. Nyrond would be interested in stopping that union, pretty much at all costs. (A unified F-V would completely control trade from Perrenland and the Bakluni west, some of the Keoland trade and ALL of the Velverdyva basin--A thought that puts a knot in Nyronds panties)
Although Nyrond would not subsidize outright assasination, it may be interested in helping an little good-old-fashioned-misadventure along.
The Scarlet Brotherhood is a patsy, a scarlet herring, so to speak. Nyronds in the know are interested in getting leverage on the growing threat of the SB ASAP. Putting Furyondy on the SB's case by implicating them in the abduction of thier favorite son is a perfect plan...killing two birds with one stone.
FL
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Jan 29, 2005 14:03:18 GMT -5
It's not that the Nyrond scenario couldn't occur; it's just that Iuz is certainly most likely.
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Post by Scott on Jan 29, 2005 14:39:46 GMT -5
To me, Nyrond having anything to do with it is like trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. It seems like rationalizing somebody's misunderstanding of the timeline. It's just like all the ideas I've heard to explain why Thrommel's sword really is chaotic good, and not accepting the fact that it was just a typeo, and that the sword is LG. With Nyrond's access to the sea (both Furondy and Veluna are land-locked) and its proximity to Hepmonaland, the Amedio, and other exotic ports, I think they already have a huge advnatage over Foryondy/Veluna trade-wise. Scott
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Post by GT on Jan 30, 2005 13:27:49 GMT -5
Yeppers--and the fact that the sword was Lawful Good is a fact--straight from the Gary's mouth to my ear a few yards away. I can accept typos/mistakes... I just fix 'em in my campaign.
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Post by GT on Jan 30, 2005 13:33:57 GMT -5
Oh, and BTW--check out Nyrond's population and army (listed in the DRAGON article) as opposed to either Furyondy or Veluna... there's just no reason for jealousy on any front, except maybe the quality of "knightly virtue" or some-such. Certainly, Nyrond would stand to lose more if Iuz succeeded than if he failed in the final analysis. However, since the issue was not clearly defined, how it's run in anybody's personal campaign is certainly their business--I'm just sayin'... ^__^
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