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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 5, 2018 5:10:58 GMT -5
Is it possible that Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's? Seduced by Lolth to become her lover and embrace her demonic faith? So, then he took up clericism and Lolth worship {dual class character}? It is interesting that he has paladin-like ability scores, and very high hit points for a straight 5th level cleric, even considering his 16 constitution? If Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's, seduced into Lolth worship, was Iuz part and parcel to the ruse, adding to the great animosity between St. Cuthbert and Iuz? Maybe Lareth was formerly a 6th level paladin {guardian level title} that lost paladinhood status to become a fighter, and since then became a dual-class character, now progressed to a 5th level cleric {perfect level title}? Upon attaining 7th level cleric status {lama level title}, he may regain the exceptional strength he had previously? Might Lareth have been complicit in the betrayal of Paladin Lord Prince Thrommel, Grand Marshall of Furyondy, Provost of Veluna to the temple? Perhaps the yellow/gold eye of fire {or should we say Y within a triangle?!} is the armorial bearing of Lareth, and once he is uncovered at the moathouse it will be apparent that Lareth is not missing like Thrommel still is - Lareth had been charged {as one of Veluna's Knights of the Hart?} as a trusted guardian of Thrommel, and it can only be presumed that Lareth has betrayed his liege lord, order, country, and deity. The Y within a triangle as Lareth's armorial bearing sounds akin to the antlers devices for the Knights of Furyondy and Knights of Veluna... Sable, a pair of antlers, or? Black capes with yellow/gold Y within a triangle?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 5, 2018 9:43:46 GMT -5
It's not possible that Lareth is a fallen paladin, because if he was, he'd have different stats. A fallen paladin is a fighter, so he'd be listed as a dual classed fighter/cleric. However, he could be a fallen cleric of St Cuthbert, formerly associated with the Knights of the Hart, and/or somebody who was trusted by -- and who betrayed -- Prince Thrommel.
The Y within a triangle was the symbol of the EEG, and IIRC the artwork was supposed to display that but Trampier did his own thing and drew the eye of fire symbol.
Moathouse zombies in excess of what Lareth could animate/control could have been put there by whomever set up Lareth in the moathouse, perhaps Barkinar or Hedrack or some other evil cleric in the service of the Temple. I used to wonder if there was any limit to how many undead a cleric could animate. As written, "the spell will animate the monsters until they are destroyed or until the magic is dispelled (see dispel magic spell)." It doesn't explicitly say that that a cleric cannot keep casting this spell, to build up an army of skeletons and zombies under his control! That seems unbalancing, however, and when I once asked EGG about it, he responded that there should be limit here (e. g. if a cleric has already animated some undead and casts the spell on a different set of corpses, the magic no longer animates the previous corpses, so he can only have the number animated as outlined in the spell description: 1 zombie or 1 skeleton per level of the cleric, total, at any given time).
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 5, 2018 10:10:04 GMT -5
It's not possible that Lareth is a fallen paladin, because if he was, he'd have different stats. A fallen paladin is a fighter, so he'd be listed as a dual classed fighter/cleric. However, he could be a fallen cleric of St Cuthbert, formerly associated with the Knights of the Hart, and/or somebody who was trusted by -- and who betrayed -- Prince Thrommel. The Y within a triangle was the symbol of the EEG, and IIRC the artwork was supposed to display that but Trampier did his own thing and drew the eye of fire symbol. Gotcha, yes I follow you that per PHB he would have different stats if Lareth was a fallen paladin that became a fighter and subsequently took up dual class as a cleric. I was wondering if it was possible that the dual class could have been edited out/dropped from the final VOH publication, or if EGG did a hand-wave here that since Lolth is a deity she has power to take Lareth directly from what he was {6th level paladin?} to become a 5th level cleric while maintaining previous paladin hit points and attribute scores, with only a single-level decline from 6th to 5th level and the loss of exceptional percentile strength? Or is it possible that EGG ever DM'ed a fallen paladin PC previously in his Greyhawk campaign, and at that time {previous to PHB publication}, he penalized the PC with a single level drop and determined the PC would now be an evil cleric, instead of an evil fighter?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 5, 2018 10:29:11 GMT -5
Well, anything's possible, but I don't think we have any evidence that Lareth was formerly a paladin, or that EGG ever had fallen paladins turn into evil clerics. Not that I'm aware of, anyway. I'm not sure what the limits of a deity's power are in that regard, either... But if Lolth can turn Drow into driders, it's probably not that much of a stretch to believe she could turn a fallen paladin into an evil cleric!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 5, 2018 13:56:15 GMT -5
Lareth has a phylactery of action magic item, which gives him immunity to being magically held or paralyzed in any manner. This magic item is not exactly the same as the benefits of a ring of free action - which magic item conveys immunity to slow spells and gives abilty to move freely within webs, underwater, etc. Do you DM the phylactery of action solely per the stated magic benefits in the T1 module, or do you confer all the benefits for this magic item to match the benefits for a ring of free action? Does this magic item have the same or different experience and gold piece values to a ring of free action? It seems like Lareth's phlactery of action should look spider-like on his arm - like Jewish phylacteries, which are small black boxes containing holy scriptures, with multiple straps wrapped around the arm to hold it in place - the box appearing like the body of a black spider, with its straps like spider legs spreading across and wrapping his arm like spider legs? What unholy demonic portentous scriptures/runes/glyphs of Lolth may be contained within the small phlactery box? Might the phylactery have other purposes and/or abilities for a wearer if taken into the temple? Is it possible that the phylactery would be part of loosing Lolth from the temple? Or provide the wearer with safe passage to temple areas? Or start demonizing/possessing/polymorphing the wearer - or would the malignant or other effects of this phylactery only come into play if Lolth is loosed or confronted within the temple?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 13:15:53 GMT -5
I think Lareth's motives are opportunistic to move up in the Temple organization, probably seeing it as a route to power in the long term. In the short term, he wants to prove himself as a leader by leading successful raids and ambushes (not too near) in order to gain treasure and resources both for the Temple and himself, while remaining beneath notice of Hommlet and the "allies of Weal" for the time being. I don't know how much I'd want to develop the link to the GD series... That might be too much! These links could be here, but will the player characters ever have any chance to find out about them, or interact with these details? If Lareth dies in this adventure, that would make such extensive background rather superfluous. But if he escapes and you want to run the GD series at a later time, you may want to develop all of these ideas further. P. S. Just going by T1 and the GD modules (ignoring T1-4), I have a hard time understanding what is up with Lareth. The Fiery Eye symbol is evidently the symbol of the Elder Elemental God, but Lareth is a servant of Lolth! I do want to keep options available to both run the GD series at a later date, and also be prepared if Lareth were to escape demise at the adventurers' hands in T1. I'm thinking more about alternative interpretations for the crossed arms before the face secret sign of the new master: Ekbir? {Baklunish racial angle} Scarlet Brotherhood? {Suloise racial angle} - if this, the crossed arms would need to be vertical/horizontal cross? Black widow hourglass? Maybe Lareth and his minions should all have black helms with a vertical red stripe? I think it is key to keep both the T1 and GD modules' material as canonical, and treat all T1-4 content as tentative, in order to pursue a more fulfilling Gygaxian T2, D4, and beyond...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 16, 2018 14:52:47 GMT -5
I just read in the WOG folio:
"Brothers of the Scarlet sign are reportedly hiding as trusted advisors or henchmen in many courts and castles in the north, spying for their master and ready to strike."
Is it possible/likely that Lareth serves both Lolth and the Scarlet Brotherhood's warrior-spy led network?
Or is his allegiance to the SB a ruse?
Is the EEG manipulating the SB and/or Lolth?
The more I dig into this the more I wonder if the temple is a "factious ruse" = it appears factionalized, however it is unwittingly in the genius thrall of the EEG?! The four elemental evil factions + Iuz + Lolth {combined with SB?} + Iggwlf/Zuggtmoy are all being orchestrated/controlled/COMMON-CAUSE-UNITED by the EEG?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 16, 2018 15:02:39 GMT -5
It could make sense that the traders, Rannos Davl {thief}, and Gremag {assassin} are SB implants into the temple, and Lareth, in turn, is a Lolth/temple implant into the SB?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 20, 2018 12:27:14 GMT -5
So, per the DMG rule above, Lareth is either daily renewing his T (turn) command of the twelve zombies, or else he animated the zombies and therefore retains control of all twelve that way? I had thought animate dead limits undead under control to the spell caster's level, unless perhaps it is combined with a permanency or limited wish spell? Unless instead chronic visitor 6th level Canon Belsornig or else 7th level Barkinar's command is retaining longer term control ("D" destroy chart result) of these zombies? Maybe instead Lareth should be increased to 6th level? I wonder if the difference in VOH text {twelve zombies in pairs within six total cells} versus the moathouse map of five total cells has to do with an adjustment of Lareth's animate dead capacity to match a late level change from 6th to 5th on Lareth's part? In other words, EGG may have permitted evil clerics to control as many undead per how many animate dead spells could be cast without resting again - therefore, since Lareth was originally a 6th level NPC, and could (including high wisdom attribute third level bonus spell) cast three third level animate dead spells, he could have controlled a total of up to 6 x 3 = 18 zombies? But when Lareth was altered to 5th level just prior to VOH module publication, he could cast only two third level animate dead spells to control a maximum of 5 x 2 = 10 zombies. So the moathouse dungeon map was altered reducing the cell count from six to five, however the encounter text was not updated to reduce the total zombie count from twelve to ten? This could be an indication that EGG allowed the maximum controlled undead limits to be increased gradually as clerics and magic-users gained higher levels? What would you think of this ruling?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 20, 2018 12:35:59 GMT -5
Maybe it's part of a tone-down of Lareth's power = he was originally a 6th level OD&D cleric and got transformed to a 5th level AD&D cleric immediately prior to VOH publication?
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