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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 21, 2018 10:59:06 GMT -5
I wouldn't read too much into it. Lareth is probably intended as nothing more than a challenging foe for the party to face and overcome in their early adventures -- their first real test against a strong and intelligent opponent, who has the added danger of being charismatic. The crossed arms before the face is just like knowing a password, it's a symbol of allegiance, and could mean anything... quadratic implying the four elements, X meaning stop or destruction, a portentous rune or glyph etc. -- essentially just the local 'Nazi salute.'
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 21, 2018 15:30:00 GMT -5
I wouldn't read too much into it. Lareth is probably intended as nothing more than a challenging foe for the party to face and overcome in their early adventures -- their first real test against a strong and intelligent opponent, who has the added danger of being charismatic. The crossed arms before the face is just like knowing a password, it's a symbol of allegiance, and could mean anything... quadratic implying the four elements, X meaning stop or destruction, a portentous rune or glyph etc. -- essentially just the local 'Nazi salute.' Gotcha - yes, I read too much into things sometimes, thanks for pulling me back in! It is fun to speculate various ideas on this discussion board - I was just wondering if EGG had interest in civil war history, if he may have consciously or subconsciously, loosely had some of this historical background flavor for VOH and TOEE. I'm from Missouri, and it just seems like there is some Midwestern/backwoods vibe at play in this setting. I want to alter the as given TOEE adventure, and I may work at loosely incorporating somewhat for feel and flavor to the campaign. All of it starts though at the VOH, so I am offering up these questions for discussion, in hopes that I can best approach a Gygaxian intent, as the adventurers have already trekked to the moathouse, including with the imminent betrayer Zert and the traders' men as initial antagonists. Furnok of Ferd also with the likeliness of vexing the party with his thievery. I wish I would have played NPC Spugnoir differently - keeping his distance from joining the party and then shadowing the party to the moat house. It would have been fun if the party either realized or were tipped off that someone was sneakily following them, or else if they were victimized by a sleep spell by Spugnoir, so he could fleece the party of scrolls, spell books, and/or magic items! How fun that might have been, especially if Spugnoir had in turn been being followed by Kobort and Turuko!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 21, 2018 17:44:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't read too much into it. Lareth is probably intended as nothing more than a challenging foe for the party to face and overcome in their early adventures -- their first real test against a strong and intelligent opponent, who has the added danger of being charismatic. The crossed arms before the face is just like knowing a password, it's a symbol of allegiance, and could mean anything... quadratic implying the four elements, X meaning stop or destruction, a portentous rune or glyph etc. -- essentially just the local 'Nazi salute.' Maybe it's a skull and crossbones type sign, with Iuz as the red skull (face), and the four elements (cross bones)?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 9:40:20 GMT -5
Would you say that the twelve zombies that attempt to drive intruders into the torture room are operating under Lareth's direction/command?
Were they animated by Lareth, or discovered in the moathouse dungeon by him and then commanded into his service?
Isn't there a level limitation for how many undead a cleric can animate and keep under command?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 22, 2018 10:30:23 GMT -5
Its possible except it seems unlikely they would be under his control unless he animated them.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 22, 2018 10:49:08 GMT -5
Its possible except it seems unlikely they would be under his control unless he animated them. Sorry, I should have emphasized a rule: DMG (1979) pgs 65-66 on TURNING UNDEAD (for evil clerics): From PHB (1978) pg 84 under 6th level Magic-User spell " Invisible Stalker" it states: From MM (1977) pg 55 under INVISIBLE STALKER:
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 11:07:32 GMT -5
Its possible except it seems unlikely they would be under his control unless he animated them. If these are victims of Lareth's past raids that he has since animated, would it be possible any of the zombies might still be recognizable by locals that might be accompanying the party, such as Elmo, Rufus, or Burne? If PCs or NPCs die while adventuring at the moathouse, would Lareth animate the fallen to add to the zombie forces, that the party might recognize these adversaries as former compatriots? Might Lareth's minions secretly be digging up the dead at VOH gravesites, so that zombies may be still recognizable as Black Jay's slain family, dead wife of herdsman at location #25, the farming widow at location #4, the farming widower at location #5, dead wife of wheel and wainwright, etc.? Maybe the lower hit point zombies are the children animated from the dead? This would be truly horrifying for the party to be attacked by zombie children, and lend more vile darkness to Lareth, in addition to him being a torturer! Or are the zombies exhumed bog bodies from the fallen at the original sacking of the moat house? In that case, would they possibly be still recognizable former heroes or else evil adversaries, that perhaps some of the long-standing VOH residents or elves to the northwest would recognize if they saw these zombies?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 22, 2018 11:32:49 GMT -5
Merchants come through every 7-12 days and the wayfarers/travellers at increased pace to fill the tavern.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 12:08:00 GMT -5
So, per the DMG rule above, Lareth is either daily renewing his T (turn) command of the twelve zombies, or else he animated the zombies and therefore retains control of all twelve that way? I had thought animate dead limits undead under control to the spell caster's level, unless perhaps it is combined with a permanency or limited wish spell?
Unless instead chronic visitor 6th level Canon Belsornig or else 7th level Barkinar's command is retaining longer term control ("D" destroy chart result) of these zombies?
Maybe instead Lareth should be increased to 6th level?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 12:21:00 GMT -5
So, per the DMG rule above, Lareth is either daily renewing his T (turn) command of the twelve zombies, or else he animated the zombies and therefore retains control of all twelve that way? I had thought animate dead limits undead under control to the spell caster's level, unless perhaps it is combined with a permanency or limited wish spell? Unless instead chronic visitor 6th level Canon Belsornig or else 7th level Barkinar's command is retaining longer term control ("D" destroy chart result) of these zombies? Maybe instead Lareth should be increased to 6th level? Lareth has an awful lot of hit points {44} for 5th level, even given his 16 constitution. I may just move him to 6th level and give him an additional 3rd level spell to use.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 12:34:53 GMT -5
So, per the DMG rule above, Lareth is either daily renewing his T (turn) command of the twelve zombies, or else he animated the zombies and therefore retains control of all twelve that way? I had thought animate dead limits undead under control to the spell caster's level, unless perhaps it is combined with a permanency or limited wish spell? Unless instead chronic visitor 6th level Canon Belsornig or else 7th level Barkinar's command is retaining longer term control ("D" destroy chart result) of these zombies? Maybe instead Lareth should be increased to 6th level? Lareth has an awful lot of hit points {44} for 5th level, even given his 16 constitution. I may just move him to 6th level and give him an additional 3rd level spell to use. Due to Lareth's high number of hit points for 5th level, as well as his 18 strength, I wonder if Lareth was originally either a fighter or evil cavalier class in the original adventure EGG DM'ed, and then he later decided to switch his class to cleric when he created the VOH module for publication? It might explain the mixed language about the former moathouse master being both black lord of the fortress and a vile cleric of damnation?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 22, 2018 13:21:26 GMT -5
Scroll use. Which can be more versatile than spell casting off combat.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 13:38:12 GMT -5
Scroll use. Which can be more versatile than spell casting off combat. Gotcha, that works!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 22, 2018 16:02:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't read too much into it. Lareth is probably intended as nothing more than a challenging foe for the party to face and overcome in their early adventures -- their first real test against a strong and intelligent opponent, who has the added danger of being charismatic. The crossed arms before the face is just like knowing a password, it's a symbol of allegiance, and could mean anything... quadratic implying the four elements, X meaning stop or destruction, a portentous rune or glyph etc. -- essentially just the local 'Nazi salute.' Gotcha - yes, I read too much into things sometimes, thanks for pulling me back in! It is fun to speculate various ideas on this discussion board - I was just wondering if EGG had interest in civil war history, if he may have consciously or subconsciously, loosely had some of this historical background flavor for VOH and TOEE. I'm from Missouri, and it just seems like there is some Midwestern/backwoods vibe at play in this setting. I want to alter the as given TOEE adventure, and I may work at loosely incorporating somewhat for feel and flavor to the campaign. All of it starts though at the VOH, so I am offering up these questions for discussion, in hopes that I can best approach a Gygaxian intent, as the adventurers have already trekked to the moathouse, including with the imminent betrayer Zert and the traders' men as initial antagonists. Furnok of Ferd also with the likeliness of vexing the party with his thievery. I wish I would have played NPC Spugnoir differently - keeping his distance from joining the party and then shadowing the party to the moat house. It would have been fun if the party either realized or were tipped off that someone was sneakily following them, or else if they were victimized by a sleep spell by Spugnoir, so he could fleece the party of scrolls, spell books, and/or magic items! How fun that might have been, especially if Spugnoir had in turn been being followed by Kobort and Turuko! Bushwhackers versus Jayhawkers at the Kansas territory/Missouri border were a significant conflict leading up to the civil war. There were many slaveholders who had come up from the south to Missouri's frontier in Clay County - this has so many elements loosely associated with VOH including Black Jay, slaveholders relocating from south to further NW, instigating breakout of warfare, scalping/executions/torture, martial law enforcement {likening to St. Cuthberites}, three major Missouri factions that can be loosely akin to temple, old faith, and St. Cuthbert's, that it seems like it is an inspiration for this adventure's development...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 24, 2018 8:27:43 GMT -5
Lareth has a stash of 70 black capes, with the symbol of the "new master" sewn on them at moathouse dungeon location #3?
Is this an indication of how many evil men he intends to recruit into and add to his current forces at the moat house, before he makes his next strategic move? At that point would he be ready to pillage and ransack Hommlet with overwhelming force, before the VOH castle is completed? Have any of you ran or been involved with a general battle of this kind including the village militia and Rufus' squad of MAA at the tower? The VOH module notes discuss the possibility of a general battle breaking out, places destroyed, and new move-ins to Hommlet as the game progresses. What are some of the developments you have experienced along these lines in your campaigns?
Is Lareth a new kind of master than the previous moathouse master? Would you say that the symbol he is using {originally a Y within a triangle, not the module's yellow eye of fire}, should be associated with the temple's elemental fire faction, or a different temple faction? Or is it its own new faction? Lareth is thoroughly wicked, depraved, and capricious. Being a torturer seems to well account for his wickedness and depravity - have you added other elements beyond this? How about the capriciousness - swift, unpredictable changes in moods that have his followers always walking on eggshells? Does he tend to depraved "fixes" when he falls into his dark moods {maybe that's when he seeks out using the torture room}? Although this may mean Lareth is volatile, he is very wise, yet of average intelligence. How do you portray this in the adventure? Outstanding intuition/perceptiveness, indomitable willpower, and cunning manipulation/persuasion on his part, but perhaps simple, unchanging tactics that he can be outwitted? Maybe he is illiterate, or nearly so? Somewhat absent-minded? Too volatile to be reasoned with?
Was the original moat house leader instead associated with the temple's elemental earth faction at the moat house, which was how the moat house was first constructed, perhaps with assistance from the temple's elemental water faction?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 24, 2018 9:13:41 GMT -5
It's too bad that Lareth doesn't have access to a water breathing spell, magic item, or ability. Combined with his phylactery of action, it would be fun if his chamber had an incorporated water escape route he could use if needed, say the underground stream feeding the giant crayfish pool flows too fast for potential pursuers, washing them into the giant crayfish pool, while Lareth with his free action, can go quickly upstream unimpeded to escape the other direction outdoors into the boggy marshlands?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 1, 2018 15:00:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't read too much into it. Lareth is probably intended as nothing more than a challenging foe for the party to face and overcome in their early adventures -- their first real test against a strong and intelligent opponent, who has the added danger of being charismatic. The crossed arms before the face is just like knowing a password, it's a symbol of allegiance, and could mean anything... quadratic implying the four elements, X meaning stop or destruction, a portentous rune or glyph etc. -- essentially just the local 'Nazi salute.' Maybe it's a skull and crossbones type sign, with Iuz as the red skull (face), and the four elements (cross bones)? Ok, I was looking into the X sign of Lareth as the new master - it could correlate with the crossed silver daggers of the House of Everhate? If so, then Lareth is of the noble house that are "nominal supporters of the noble houses worshipping the demoness Lolth, but seldom active against the Eilservs-Tormtor faction, as they prefer to wait and see the eventual outcome of the contest." So, the platinum pin set with a ruby found under a human skull in the giant crayfish pool: if the platinum pin is a prototype of the House of Godeep's platinum crossbow, and its inset ruby {possibly the head of a quarrel cocked in the crossbow?} correlates to House Despana's red gem, what does this mean: (1) The dead "old master" of the moathouse {dating from the decade-ago fall of the temple} was an agent of House Despana placed by House Godeep - note that House Godeep is "committed to the anti-Eilservs faction" and "will gain greater rewards from the victorious Kilsek combination {with Despana & Noquar}, and thus displace the Everhate House as 5th in precedence." In this case, did Lareth pull the body of the dead old master of the moathouse from the crypt, and ceremonially feed the body to the giant crayfish in the pool, while elevating himself as the "new master" from House Everhate? (2) Same as above, except that the body was a recent potential usurper of Lareth, again an agent of House Despana placed by House Godeep, that Lareth unmasked, tortured, and fed alive to the giant crayfish? In that case, is Lareth suspecting that the Despana/Godeep scheme was at the direction of agent(s) of the temple {a test from Lolth?, a ploy by Iuz {and Igwlf, perhaps also Zuggtmoy?} to maintain the status quo imprisonment of Lolth?, a Scarlet Brotherhood scheme?}. (3) Or is it that Lareth is the recent usurper of the Despana/Godeep agent? If (2) or (3) then what are Lareth's current motives? Does he remain strong in faith to Lolth, or is he a potential turncoat to the EEG {is it possible that the original Y within a triangle emblem depicts Lareth's recent conversion?} Any expected rash, volatile, vengeful actions on Lareth's part? Who are his allies? Who are his enemies? Are all in the temple aware that Lareth is the "new master" at the moat house, or are some yet unaware that there is a master once again at all there, or else are unaware that the Despana/Godeep agent had been usurped by Lareth?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 4, 2018 11:01:45 GMT -5
I think Lareth's motives are opportunistic to move up in the Temple organization, probably seeing it as a route to power in the long term. In the short term, he wants to prove himself as a leader by leading successful raids and ambushes (not too near) in order to gain treasure and resources both for the Temple and himself, while remaining beneath notice of Hommlet and the "allies of Weal" for the time being.
I don't know how much I'd want to develop the link to the GD series... That might be too much! These links could be here, but will the player characters ever have any chance to find out about them, or interact with these details? If Lareth dies in this adventure, that would make such extensive background rather superfluous. But if he escapes and you want to run the GD series at a later time, you may want to develop all of these ideas further.
P. S. Just going by T1 and the GD modules (ignoring T1-4), I have a hard time understanding what is up with Lareth. The Fiery Eye symbol is evidently the symbol of the Elder Elemental God, but Lareth is a servant of Lolth!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 4, 2018 13:49:03 GMT -5
Is it possible that Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's?
Seduced by Lolth to become her lover and embrace her demonic faith?
So, then he took up clericism and Lolth worship {dual class character}?
It is interesting that he has paladin-like ability scores, and very high hit points for a straight 5th level cleric, even considering his 16 constitution?
If Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's, seduced into Lolth worship, was Iuz part and parcel to the ruse, adding to the great animosity between St. Cuthbert and Iuz?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 5, 2018 4:39:17 GMT -5
Is it possible that Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's? Seduced by Lolth to become her lover and embrace her demonic faith? So, then he took up clericism and Lolth worship {dual class character}? It is interesting that he has paladin-like ability scores, and very high hit points for a straight 5th level cleric, even considering his 16 constitution? If Lareth is a fallen paladin of St. Cuthbert's, seduced into Lolth worship, was Iuz part and parcel to the ruse, adding to the great animosity between St. Cuthbert and Iuz? Maybe Lareth was formerly a 6th level paladin {guardian level title} that lost paladinhood status to become a fighter, and since then became a dual-class character, now progressed to a 5th level cleric {perfect level title}? Upon attaining 7th level cleric status {lama level title}, he may regain the exceptional strength he had previously? Might Lareth have been complicit in the betrayal of Paladin Lord Prince Thrommel, Grand Marshall of Furyondy, Provost of Veluna to the temple?
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