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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2018 19:44:48 GMT -5
sorry "by the early 1980's" I had meant to say.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2018 20:31:54 GMT -5
There was the question of whether or not Lareth was originally a drow brought up somewhere but I can't recall where that went.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2018 10:23:03 GMT -5
I do not have a specific "Corellon" in my campaign. I poured through all my records last night.
The only thing that I have, I think that I mentioned this before, are evil elf deities of certain races (two of which races will appear in my first published adventure.) The rest are human oriented.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2018 11:51:45 GMT -5
Lareth sat at the mirror, combing his long hair with a jeweled brush.
"Am I not... beautiful?" He asked his reflection.
"Lareth!" a guard called from outside of his chamber. "You'd better get out here! We have company."
"Can't you handle them by yourselves?" Lareth exclaimed. "I'm brushing my hair!"
"We might need the 'dark hope of chaotic evil' to cast a Hold Person spell."
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2018 16:24:48 GMT -5
I wonder if all that "the beautiful" was meant for him to be 100% "Johnny Chaotic Evil" i.e. a way to plainly express an individual who is obviously CE person?
In the DMG (1979) pg 24:
and in general in the next paragraph:
Looking at Lareth's instructions for the DM:
Its like he doesn't care about the troops he can readily replace them with more unruly swindlers or even pretenders
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2018 17:37:55 GMT -5
Lately I’ve been associating Lareth with Prince Charming from Shrek.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2018 22:17:14 GMT -5
Scott,
You’ve run T1 many times. How often have player characters exchanged words with him (parleys, offers, negotiating, etc.)? Or has it always simply been a brutal fight to the death and/or Lareth fleeing out his escape tunnel or elsewhere?
As much as I like Lareth, and the idea of doing more with him from the standpoint of role-playing and possibility of him being a longer running villain, the scenario as written doesn’t seem to be set up for that. If the players get the upper hand, do they listen to his offers or just try to kill him? If Lareth gets the upper hand, does he ever spare any captives, question them, offer to let them join him? I can’t envision many stalemate situations where they can talk without fighting... Maybe if the player characters couldn’t get past a portcullis, or something like that...
I love the idea of a villain monologuing from behind a Wall of Force, or something similar, but it just doesn't happen too often...
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Post by Scott on Jan 10, 2018 22:55:13 GMT -5
The way it's set up makes it unlikely there will be much dialogue. Lareth doesn't show up until the 3rd wave of attackers, and by then it's usually a fight to the death. Many times he's given the players the option of surrendering, but they have never accepted. They've usually assumed they were going to win, or thought surrendering was as good as dead. In one combat, when it was obvious the PCs were winning Lareth escaped with the help of his sanctuary spell. All the PCs failed their saves and he walked out, completely ignored by the players. Another time he surrendered. Was taken back as a prisoner, and then assassinated by Gremag before he could talk.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 19, 2018 14:20:20 GMT -5
The sign of the new master is crossed arms before the face, as noted in the encounter with Lubash.
I was thinking about meaning that Lareth might ascribe to using this sign?
Also, is this sign of the new master known by temple leadership or not?
Is it possibly a rough allusion to the crossed hammer and sickle under a star used by the USSR? Would the 'dark hope of chaotic evil' be a rough allusion to the star above the hammer and sickle?
Lareth {star} as the uniter and leader of a new alliance of evil men peasants death reapers {sickle} flocking to Nulb from the E/NE and menacing/aggressive revolutionary war force humanoid craft workers/builders/miners proletariats {hammer} coming up from the S from forest lands bordering the Wild Coast (and also slavers from the Pomarj beyond)? Note that the symbol origin of the USSR had variants: hammer and rakes, hammer and pitchforks, hammer and plow.
And the words for hammer (molot) and sickle (serp) put together and inversed create the word (prestolom) meaning with a (dictatorial) throne.
There was a Slavic goddess of death, Mara or Morana. Also a Hindu goddess of death Kali {sister of Shiva} who held a sickle in her left hand.
The hammer is associated variously with Hephaestus (Greece blacksmith) and thunder gods Svarog (Slavic) and Thor (Norse).
So, if the USSR symbols are meant to be also associated with demonic/evil deity leadership of the TOEE, we could associate Iuz with the hammer, Lolth with the sickle, and the for now hidden (but possible to be loosed) EEG with the star?
Would EGG have any of the above in mind with the creation of his original TOEE manuscript, prior to replacing Lolth with Zuggtmoy and removing the EEG from the adventure?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 19, 2018 14:47:18 GMT -5
It can be seen as the symbol of the Inner (Elemental) Planes and over the face instead of chest implies elements towards negative energy (Evil) and/or blinded meaning indifference.
Or it could just be a reference to Lolth. 2 eyes multiplied 4 ways equals 8 eyes like a spider.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 19, 2018 15:14:22 GMT -5
It can be seen as the symbol of the Inner (Elemental) Planes and over the face instead of chest implies elements towards negative energy (Evil) and/or blinded meaning indifference. Or it could just be a reference to Lolth. 2 eyes multiplied 4 ways equals 8 eyes like a spider. I don't remember - was this secret sign referenced/used anywhere within the temple?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 19, 2018 15:19:42 GMT -5
It can be seen as the symbol of the Inner (Elemental) Planes and over the face instead of chest implies elements towards negative energy (Evil) and/or blinded meaning indifference. Or it could just be a reference to Lolth. 2 eyes multiplied 4 ways equals 8 eyes like a spider. And maybe also a statement to Lareth's objective: to next subjugate wealthy Hommlet to add a second 'eye' to the community of Nulb, then by spider-like creeping advances expands/outwards all four directions in an ever-growing cancerous new dark face of chaotic evil?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 19, 2018 15:52:22 GMT -5
I am interested in the common worship in Nulb be differentiated and contra to St. Cuthbert's billet, starburst, and crumpled hat.
Perhaps the peasants of Nulb have 'new faith' demonic/deity worship symbolized by the sickle, pitch fork, and rake? They reap what they do not sow, bringing death, darkness, and destruction in their wake? This is now {stoked by Iuz} vying with/displacing Nulb's 'old faith' of elemental evil worship, and designed not to outwardly rouse the opposition of the Gnarley Woods 'old faith' once again, which had contributed to the temple's previous failure?
Lolth had previously implemented the elemental evil worship that led to temporary defeat and her binding. Iuz is not really interested in elemental evil, he and his minions are pushing the 'new faith' of death, darkness, and destruction.
Lareth sees things differently - he would see Lolth freed and elemental evil faith rise again!
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 19, 2018 16:49:58 GMT -5
The ideas of the religion are plug-in chaotic evil. Demogorgon can walk off the street and get involved in some manner the next week. Its more about the neutrality of elements leaning toward chaos and evil. So its anything goes as long as its negotiated with the land grabbing mentality of it.
A lot of the codifying of the old D&D material came after Gygax because they didn't know what to make of all the evil. So they organized and made it look forgettable or boring. I was listening to what was comign down the pipe after Gygax and the humdrumming nature of it was very convincing. Codified charts of powers by spheres, etc. It just seemed like it was going to flow that way but nothing is simple in D&D. If its too easy its stale.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 9:38:54 GMT -5
Inspiration for Lareth the Beautiful- Chinese opera singer/spy Shi Pei Pu who obtained secrets during a 20 year sexual affair in which he convinced an employee in the French Embassy that he was a woman, later producing a child that he insisted had been born through their relations?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 9:51:59 GMT -5
Alternative Lareth the Beautiful inspiration - Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan, who loved gems and jewelry, the Temple is his Taj Mahal. Would Lolth have taken Lareth for a lover?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 10:14:30 GMT -5
Perhaps the best Lareth the Beautiful inspiration is simply Jesse James?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 10:25:32 GMT -5
Perhaps the best Lareth the Beautiful inspiration is simply Jesse James? If Jesse James is used as inspiration for Lareth the Beautiful's character, he is quickly becoming a hero in Nulb, and drawing in followers from the surrounding area. Have any of you had Lareth and his gang, perhaps aided by the traders, rob the bank of Hommlet, Nira Melubb?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 10:32:35 GMT -5
Perhaps the best Lareth the Beautiful inspiration is simply Jesse James? This would make Nulb akin to Confederates that had lost the war, with St. Cuthbert's followers akin to the victorious Union. And it makes Nulb susceptible to manipulation via the racist message and purposes of the Scarlet Brotherhood.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 20, 2018 17:02:00 GMT -5
Perhaps the best Lareth the Beautiful inspiration is simply Jesse James? This would make Nulb akin to Confederates that had lost the war, with St. Cuthbert's followers akin to the victorious Union. And it makes Nulb susceptible to manipulation via the racist message and purposes of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Then Lareth's secret sign could be conflated with Robert E. Lee's battle flag. The seven factions in play at the temple can parallel the seven original states in the confederacy, with room for the DM to add six additional factions to the temple during the campaign? Perhaps the original moathouse vile cleric of damnation/black lord of the fortress as a Robert E. Lee type?
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