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Post by Scott on May 8, 2009 14:30:54 GMT -5
It seems that Gary's conception of druids changed as time went by. They were originally priests of 'nature' that held trees, the sun, and moon as deities. By Isle of the Ape, they are worshiping traditional gods and Reynard is the grand druid of Obad-hai, or some such. Where do you think Hommlet falls into this, where much of the townsfolk are followers of the Old Faith?
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Post by geneweigel on May 8, 2009 18:06:13 GMT -5
I don't know, they start out in GREYHAWK as "nature god serving, bard-like class-switching monsters" and get this inhuman monstrous "vibe" that stuck when they switched to cleric subclass in ELDRITCH WIZARDRY still serving the nature god but emphasis on the monstrous aspect by saying they value plants more.
By the time the get to the PHB its like a huge justification gone all over the place implying their is no intelligence behind what they serve just to explain how they originated as a "foe".
I've tried to keep them classical in feel forever looking towards the descriptions of the Romans etc. but I haven't really thought about it in a while.
I largely ignore them but they have about 5 or 6 gods in my campaign.
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GT
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Post by GT on May 8, 2009 21:08:54 GMT -5
Well, most of 'em certainly worship Beory and Obad-hai, but I rather combine the Roman-version with the nature/balance version of Gary. They represent plants, animals, life, death, gradual change through time, the weather, the seasons, the elements, etc. Humans, unfortunately, upset this Balance, and that's where the Druid sects and the majority of humanity come into conflict. I do play them as "judges" as the Romans portrayed them, but they also have a heirarchy they must answer to. They're not necessarily "tree-huggers", but they certainly frown upon decimation of a forest (which may contain a holy grove...) And yes, "Old Faith" in Hommlet is Druid (specifically, Beory) worship to me.
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Post by GT on May 8, 2009 21:10:29 GMT -5
I should add, Beory represents all of these natural order of things that Druids are purported to hold sacred! ^__^
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Falconer
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Post by Falconer on May 9, 2009 1:25:36 GMT -5
Yeah, in my games Beory is Nature and only a barely anthropomorphized as the Oerth Mother. The main Druid PC/caller in my old campaign would call "Beory!" when casting spells but it is just a mystical word that represents what he believes in, really.
In my current campaign I've renamed the class from "Druid" to "Beorning" to give it a more definite fantasy character that I like. At those levels when they can polymorph self, it has to be a species of bear of their choosing. I'm digging it...
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Post by GT on May 9, 2009 12:34:54 GMT -5
I'm with Falconer for the most part--Beory is Oerth, or at least the conscious manifestation thereof. But I did detail her "human" manifestation (at least enough to have a good idea!)
BEORY (Oerth Mother, Nature, Rain) Greater Deity ARMOR: -3 MOVE: 18" HIT POINTS: 390 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 2 DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5 – 10 (+8) SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 100% SIZE: M ALIGNMENT: Neutral WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Neutral SYMBOL: Oak tree, Oerth disc PLANE: Prime Material (Oerth) CLERIC/DRUID: 10th lvl Ceric/23rd lvl Druid FIGHTER: Nil MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: Nil THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: 10th lvl Bard PSIONIC ABILITY: I Attack/Defense Modes: S: 20 I: 19 W: 25 D: 19 C: 25* CH: 20 (25 to natural creatures) *when in contact with Oerth, otherwise 20
Beory is the Oerth Mother, and her power is a reflection of that world’s overall health. She is certainly one of the most ancient deities, her name coming from the ancient Flan Be-Oeri, meaning “Mother (that is) of the Oerth”. The Oerth Mother has many innate abilities relating to the natural world. She may cast an earthquake spell at the 23rd level of ability. She may also cast weather-related spells as follows: Precipitation spell of 30" diameter and 120" height. Cloudburst spell of 30" diameter and 60" height, and Control weather spell that affects between 4 and 64 square miles (Beory’s option) that takes only one hour to take effect. Beory may summon 2 – 8 treants and/or 2 – 8 galeb duhr, each once per day. It takes but one round for the summons to function. She may, at will, summon as many natural animals from within a 1-mile radius as she desires to aid her. Additionally, Beory carries the Oerthstaff, which is a +4 staff that has all of the powers of a staff of the woodlands. Additionally, its wielder is surrounded by a ten-foot radius of calm, comfortable air at all times, be they in a scorching desert, arctic blizzard or violent windstorm. No natural plant or animal will harm or impede the user of this staff. When striking a creature native to the Outer Planes, the staff does double damage (10 – 20 +8 points). Druids serving Beory wear robes of various shades of brown with green belts. The grand druid wears a white belt, and the Hierophants wear white robes with white belts. Services are generally outdoors, rain or shine, in scenic glades or grottoes. Special moonlight services are held on the eves of Needfest, Growfest, Richfest, and Brewfest. The sect is rather scattered, being found in the Hornwood, Phostwood, Fellreev, Forlorn, and Hraak forests. A few worshippers are also to be found in the Vesve, where they actively oppose the forces of Iuz and Zuggtmoy, who utilize evil elemental forces to further their goals. There are also a few scattered shrines to be found in remote areas of Oerik, such as high in mountains or in the middle of open plains.
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Post by GT on May 9, 2009 12:53:02 GMT -5
Oh, yeah--Gary got a kick outta the "Be-Oeri" bit, although he neither condoned or condemned the rest of the description!
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Post by Scott on May 10, 2009 11:25:06 GMT -5
My problem has always been, what's the difference between druids worshipping gods, and clerics? I can see druids venerating certain nature gods as icon, or saint-like figures, but I prefer the old version of the Old Faith, where it was sort of implied that druids tapped nature itself for the powers and spells. "Nature is what gives a Druid his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the Prime Material Plane together."
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Post by GT on May 10, 2009 13:42:42 GMT -5
Well, I suppose I kinda view things in that manner, insofar as Beory would be "nature incarnate" and Obad-hai would be a "saint". Those are really the only two deities any Druid in my campaigns have worshipped.
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Post by GT on May 10, 2009 14:53:41 GMT -5
GW will probably get this analogy better than most: Picture Beory as The Stranger (on a smaller scale)or The Beyonder (on a much larger scale) from Marvel comics--that is to say, a personification of something much vaster compacted into an anthromorphic form so that mortals are more readily able to interact with it. That would mean, to steal an Islamic creed, that "There is no deity save Oerth (Beory), and Obad-hai is her prophet". Does anyone read me here, Major Tom?? ^__^
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Post by GT on May 10, 2009 14:57:37 GMT -5
I should add that said "creed" would be of the Druidic disposition...
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Post by Scott on May 10, 2009 15:03:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I get ya. I think we’re basically saying the same thing; I just have a more amorphous way of implementing it.
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Post by GT on May 10, 2009 15:11:02 GMT -5
I suppose that Bards, in particular, might worship the Oerth in a more tenuous sense, as they might follow another deity (Olidamarra, for example) but still do service "unto the Oerth"... but, perhaps to keep the populace at large aware of Oerth's power, a human-form deity is necessary--as a placeholder amongst all of the other beings of power. See, you guys are making me think! ^__^
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Post by Merkholz on May 11, 2009 1:58:02 GMT -5
I've also been trying to wrap my mind around this puzzle. It really doesn't fit together - see the Obad-Hai cleric in the box ed set!
What I've come up with is that the gods, though powerful, aren't omnipotent and there is no real room for monotheism between the gods. The druids, however, do not worship the gods as much as the universe/omniverse and the Life/Nature that exists. In that order, the gods and powerful entities of the planes are more like angels/saints that hold dominion over certain areas. So, a druid represents the natural order in Balance but if there is a draught the druid communes with the steward of rains or clouds or rivers or wells in order to restore health and balance to the area he resides over.
In a druid's POV the gods are powerful forces/spirits with dominion over specific areas serving the cause of "Nature" even on a grander scale than the Oerth. Some of the entities are stout allies, i.e. Obad-Hai, and some are foes, i.e. Nerull, Orcus etc. All of them, however serve the great cause of the druids in their own capacity. In that way, druidism might be considered monotheistic.
Druids, especially low-level druids, are only human and they could easily see certain gods as closely related to their task and service and call out to them specifically giving the god-worshippers cause to see them as clerics of the nature deities. IMO this is a false, though revering the deities in their own way they are not worshipping them in the normal sense. More like seeing them as leaders, captains or icons for the "Real Thing".
IMC, the reason the "new" faith is sometimes persecuting the Old Faith is their lack of acknowledgement of the(ir) God(s) as severeign deities. That blasphemy os, in certain clerics view at least, worthy of punishment.
The real question is, what are the gods. Are they just big monsters with 400 hp max or are they near-omnipotent masters of their spheres of concern? Is there a structure to the "world" or is it just a random free-for-all where the entity that grabs the most power is the most powerful? Could druidism be the only real religion?
M
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Post by Scott on May 11, 2009 6:30:18 GMT -5
An excellent post Mattias.
Where other spell casters (generally) draw their power from other planes, or entities on them, I see druids as tapping the power of the Prime: life, nature, the natural energy of the Prime Material plane. Where other priests are granted their spells/and powers from greater beings through prayer and devotion, druids tap the source of their powers directly. I would handle their relationship with the gods on a case by case basis. In some cases they have shared goals, and they may work with certain deities, but, as you said, it is not the same as worshipping them.
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Post by GT on May 11, 2009 10:08:35 GMT -5
Yes; although Beory would be welcome on the Plane of Concordant Opposition, I tied her to the Prime, and specifically Oerth. A note on Concordant Opposition: the reason I have such powerful beings residing there is that I do not treat the plane as some sort of interplanar bazaar as it became in 2E. It is the plane of Neutrality, and whereas other creatures might be allowed to "pass through", they are expected to do just that. If not, Boccob, a grigori or an apollyon might "persuade" them to do so--be they planetar, great daemon, slaad or whatever. The plane is sort of a cosmic fulcrum meant to balance the "scales" of the other planes, not to serve as plane for "squatters" who might get in the way of the beings of Balance. ^__^
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Post by Scott on May 11, 2009 10:22:18 GMT -5
Concordant Opposition being the Casablanca of the multiverse made me puke. And so many goobers loved the Planescape setting.
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Post by geneweigel on May 11, 2009 10:33:29 GMT -5
Ehlonna's druids ("Clerics Live By Other Rules" DRAGON #94 (1984))are probably the clearest example of the "new faith versus old faith" in the world of Greyhawk.
That same article he's saying that clerics and druids get their spells the same way:
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Post by amalric on May 11, 2009 15:10:14 GMT -5
An excellent post Mattias. Where other spell casters (generally) draw their power from other planes, or entities on them, I see druids as tapping the power of the Prime: life, nature, the natural energy of the Prime Material plane. Where other priests are granted their spells/and powers from greater beings through prayer and devotion, druids tap the source of their powers directly. Agreed. The oerthblood, as described in Return of the Eight, is the specific natural energy - essence, if you will - of Oerth (as I see it), and druids derive their powers from this, the heart/blood of the world.
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Post by GT on May 14, 2009 12:04:15 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Druid religion, and I think that one could look at their worship as being "split"--much like the split in the perverted Druid factions in Rob's "Dark Druids". One faction, the "Oerth faction", worships nature itself and its occasional manifestation as Beory. The other, the "Deital faction", might follow Obad-hai and perhaps others. Both receive Druidic spells and powers, both operate within the heirarchy of Druids--i.e.: the Grand Druid and the Heirophants beyond him are to be listened to, regardless of their spell-source. As long as they are both Neutral and true to Druidic beliefs, they could co-exist (much better than, say, Democrats and Republicans who have conflicting ideals... just a thought.
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