GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 16, 2008 19:21:29 GMT -5
Well, that didn't copy so well, but you can probably figure it out! ^__^
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 19:59:10 GMT -5
Balors??? That's a definite smite!
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 20:17:40 GMT -5
Since we're discussing balrogs, I might as well post Rob's little anecdote here:
I feel a recounting of the 18 hp Balrog which Terry's 6th level underling fighter slew with two hits while the Balrog rolled a 1 and a 2 to hit, respectively(remember us co-DM’ing that day in your basement Gary?)
Terry had led a party of newbies (out-of-town fans who had never played in Castle Greyhawk) to the 4th level of the dungeon and pulled a MAJOR wandering encountering. Later we joked about the thing chopping itself with one swing and entangling its whip with another, for it had first made a stupendous appearance (Gary rolled 12 on 2d6) by roaring loudly with its immolation. Terry shook his head (he was the only person with a magical weapon, a +2 sword) as he went forward to what he thought was certain death as the newbie players cowered in the back of the corridor. Two rounds later he had dealt it two smashing hits for 18 hp, and I've noted above the Balrog's responses to these (chop/whip).
Gary and I looked at each other, impressed, and we decided to roll the hp for the thing, as it was now turning into a real fight. EGG rolled the dice--nothing but one's and two's. We laughed upon noting the total: 18 hp. The Balrog fell over, dead. We shrugged and explained it away: No wonder the thing had been encountered on the 4th level; it had been chased from the lower levels by creatures more potent! So much for the reject Balrog. I'll probably write that one up for UoaSB. #
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 20:22:14 GMT -5
I referred to the Type VI in ARTIFACT OF EVIL and there is a separate classification for I assumed would be Balor and his second (or maybe even the others):
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 20:58:54 GMT -5
I think Gary listed them earlier; the names of the original type VI demons are in the Alphabetical Index at the end of the MM II. There might be a few other unique individual names in there too.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 21:43:43 GMT -5
Yeah, thats what I was talking about (sorry about the blurb I was doing seven things at once...). "Wendonai" is one that I always remember besides "Balor".
Alzall, Ertuu, Ndulu and Ter-soth are the rest.
Whether who is a "demi-lord" (with Balor) that was destroyed in the novel as second to Balor is the question. The other question is are all the Type VIs considered "demi-lords"?
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 17, 2008 6:08:43 GMT -5
Busted, Scott! We refer to Type VI "generically" as "Balors", much as people say "Kleenex" instead of "facial tissue"... ^__^ Anyhow, the MM states that there are six Type VI's, but in the MM2 Gary says that Pazuzu has a bodyguard of 6 Type VI demons that are not those listed in the first MM. Additionally; in the Gord books Gary refers to a type of "flame demons" led by an elder demon (Paelvlag?) that are probably Type VI's---so he apparently decided that there were twelve or better at some point. I play them (as previously listed) as very rare, but of unknown number--like pit fiends or nycadaemons. I assure you: not even Woodstock wants to run into an 88 HP Type VI doing 2 - 13 (+7) with a Flametongue and immolating for 4 - 24 points of fire damage!
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 17, 2008 6:11:40 GMT -5
...and there's always that pesky "gating" thing! The PC's really hate that one! ^__^
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Post by Scott on Dec 17, 2008 7:24:04 GMT -5
If he's using his sword or whip and flames, he's most likely a goner. Melee is not their strength. Their HD and AC aren’t that impressive for their monster level (which is VIII). Their symbols can be effective, and suggestion too., but the characters they'll be fighting will have pretty good saves. Gating in help and picking off the loners is their best strategy.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 9:52:41 GMT -5
Busted, Scott! We refer to Type VI "generically" as "Balors", much as people say "Kleenex" instead of "facial tissue"... ^__^ Thats what they did in 2e, genericize the three last type demons to have the name that was on the page (Nalfeshnee, Marilith and Balor) because they didn't know any better and it followed through to 3e and 4e. So thats what Scott was saying... And Graz'zt in S4 has a type VI demon likely to be in his lair (changed to Type VI "demoness" in MMII.). Are "raloogs" and "conflagranti" interchangeable? Palvlag with his conflagranti is an elder Shabriri/Pazuzu type but the Marduk is one of the six kings of demondom and specifically fire demons. Note there was another Type VI demon that had a name in SEA OF DEATH page 359, "Uliel" who was one of the most powerful who serves Zuggtmoy who summons the Type IV who in turn summons a bunch of lesser demons.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 11:07:54 GMT -5
In DANCE OF DEMONS 93-100 the story of Gulcar, a "raloog" is used as a focus for a super illsusion put on rutterkin demons. The raloogs are briefly described as "towering" also "dusky, flame-limned" and Gulcar later is described as "bat-faced". Gulcar is then "promoted" by the artifact into "stronger than most of his kind" and the status accorded by other raloogs fed him more energy. Gulcar led an illusory force of 50 of the fake raloogs. So there must have been some believability of there beig quite a few of these.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 12:24:32 GMT -5
The conflagranti are mentioned in COME ENDLESS DARKNESS several times but there is no mention of the raloogs from DANCE OF DEMONS. I don't see conflagranti in DANCE OF DEMONS either, Heres a quote from page 150 of COME ENDLESS DARKNESS on the conflagranti:
They also mention how they're "dreaded fire demons" elsewhere in CED.
Palvlag is a Graz'zt advisor (who has his proto-demon roots mentioned later in DOD) and in the above quote its hard to tell if he's head of Graz'zt's personal guard or they're his personal guard.
Anyway, Marduk is deifinitely an enigma. He's a monarch of six over princes and lords (which includes "monarchs" Orcus and Demogorgon; upgraded for the novel?) who holds one of the artifacts of demonkind (the fire fan; which has some elemental connotation) but there is a lot of dialogue that says everything is up for grabs in the Abyss. So he probably has some say over fire demons because his current possession of the device but who knows?
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 12:32:54 GMT -5
Of course, all of this "magnification" can be said to be an effect of the theorpart... GARY!!!!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 14:40:20 GMT -5
I was just perusing modules for balrogs and the EGG OF THE PHOENIX redo (1987*) has one named Grintharke but he isn't named in the original (1982). *Checking it all out this 1987 redo thing is so badly warped together that its obviously been refitted to cast aspersions in a different light on the same subjects of the original so that the original villain can easily be connotated with someone who just left TSR at the time. What kind of warped mind put this together? Paul Jaquays? I wonder what Mentzer thought about the rewording of his shit in this manner? Heck, I'm not asking him....
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 17, 2008 18:42:39 GMT -5
Yes, Gary made Marduk a powerful demon lord with overlordship of "raloogs" (Type VI), and he later seemed to put at least some of them under the third Elder Demon, Palvlog. I never did do an adaptation of Marduk to 1E stats... I guess I'll get to that. After the Gar-Bear made it clear that he no longer wanted to comment on that genre, it kinda took the fun outta it! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 19:05:54 GMT -5
After the Gar-Bear made it clear that he no longer wanted to comment on that genre, it kinda took the fun outta it! ^__^ Heh...tell me about it! I remember him coming up with the idea for the Iuz history for the graphic novel then when I asked him to start on it he ranted and raved in the reply because he thought I was someone else asking him! I should have never accepted that "job". I remember the day, I was in downtown Brooklyn doing a real "job" and I got an e-mail to my cell phone from Gary saying pennies per word but its right up your alley. If only I had just declined and remained a fan...if only... GARY!!! Oh, not again...sorry.
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Post by Scott on Dec 17, 2008 20:54:03 GMT -5
Here's another 'balrog' quote from Gary: Now as to the Type VI "Balors," in the whole of the Abyss there must be at least an average of 10 per layer, the captains of the lords, so your 6,666 is a good estimate in my thinking. Reference to six being known was indeed for purposes of knowing their names for purposes of summoning. Lack of cooperation between Demon Lords means that overall large numbers are not threatening to other planes...
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 17, 2008 21:06:25 GMT -5
Well, that IS the answer!
I was thinking something along those lines as to them being known amount but I couldn't put a finger on it.
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Falconer
Enchanter
Knight Bachelor
AD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
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Post by Falconer on Dec 18, 2008 0:33:37 GMT -5
Marduk is technically already written up, in DDG, under the Babylonian Mythos. Of course, you have to change ALIGNMENT from Lawful neutral to Chaotic evil and likewise PLANE from Arcadia to Abyss. But otherwise it's pretty good for starters.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 18, 2008 10:28:42 GMT -5
Yeah, but taken them wholesale doesn't fit right as he's written up as a greater god even the OD&D "variant" article by Jerome Arkenburg (#16 JUL 1978) is written up like a goodly deity thats a heavy hitter compared to other demon princes.
Plus he needs some kind of motif that the others have. The fire-breathing is consistent with the mythology. Fire is the easiest way to go even though the "fire fan" may be interchangeable most of the artifacts that these monarchs have fit them in some way.
The first place that pops up is an archaeological comparative mythology treatment which is where they got most G,DG&H and Dei&Dem stuff from. The problem with those treatments are that they're very open-minded and modern. You have to go back to a time when it was more closeminded. You can go the neo-pagan route and find all kinds of imagined modern redos in a "satanic" manner but they're all over the place. You have to go back to medieval based takes where old gods are first revised as corruptions. Then you still can't take it wholecloth as that wouldn't of been what Gary would do. He'd put a spin on it and make it original like Orcus and Demogorgon.
So where is the medieval corrupt Marduk for starters?
Take this Merodach-Beladon king whose father was turned into a dog in the Talmud. Jewish mysticism being rampant in medieval times can punch right in.
Give him a canine aspect then merge the actual deity who was filled with fire and you've got some kind of large wolfman with fire coming out of eyes and his mouth whipping around a fire fan. Do you go Lon Chaney Jr short schnozz style or American Werewolf big snout style? The full wolf head thing has been played out so much so I'd prefer a "Chaney Jr" look with a short muzzle. Perhaps give him a shaggy Chewbacca coat of back shadowy fur. As most mesopotomian things had bull horns throw them on there. Long or short? Short has a ancient middle eastern feel. Give him Pazuzu-style Mesopotamian double wings but make them of fire bursting out of his back. Finally he needs some double weaponry to connotate "rog-giness". The fan can whip but it can't really snag and draw in. Maybe its the opposite where he repels with the fan. How about the fan shoots multiple fireballs that produce pillars of fire. When attacked he can wave the fan and displace to one of the pillars? Then for the alternate weapon he can one hand a strange pike-guisarme combination that is reminiscent of a fire stoker. Then he can guisarme them into the pillars of fire.
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