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Post by Scott on Dec 15, 2008 12:17:01 GMT -5
You hear so much about balrogs being encountered in the early days. In the MM it says there are only six known to exist. I think because of this I've always put off including them. I think I'm going to throw one at the party the next time I run the higher level guys to see how they do. They're not verey melee strong at the moment.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2008 13:15:35 GMT -5
I got the same sense early on but sooner or later the rogs started piling up but never in the sense of being an immediate concern upon entry to ruins like in the Greyhawk stories. But then again I never really had a regular "dungeon" that people returned to over and over and over again like that. It was the only demon in the CHAINMAIL/D&D game for a while so I guess thats why they were marginalized it in AD&D as to being limited in number and scaled in different ways. Plus the Tolkien factor didn't help much! Visually, they are an ideal demon though having all the other "chimera" demons of different parts at lower levels visually sets a different tone of weird sabbaths and shit from a compendium on witchcraft, etc.. I "balrogged" the appearance of lesser demons/devils a few times just to make it more exciting as well.
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Falconer
Enchanter
Knight Bachelor
AD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Posts: 330
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Post by Falconer on Dec 15, 2008 14:08:03 GMT -5
I was running ToEE and someone or something summoned a Balrog one time. I don't remember if it just came up in a random roll or whether the module spells it out. The party was naturally like "holy crap" due to the associations they had with Balrogs. But they proceeded to make mincemeat of it with no casualties of their own.
That's obviously NOT how I would have wanted it to go. First off, a Balrog should be at the bottom of its own dungeon. It shouldn't be summonable out of the Abyss. Probably my bad on that one. Secondly, if it *was* somehow summoned in, it should have had the party fleeing for their very lives, barely if at all escaping intact. It would then have proceeded to go kick Zuggtmoy's butt and taken over the dungeon.
All I'm saying is the players have a natural dread for things like Balrogs and Nazgul and Nyarlathotep based on the books they've read. This demonstrates the importance of the literary basis of the game. But the other half of the equation is that the monsters must live up to their reputation. Regards.
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Post by Scott on Dec 15, 2008 14:19:40 GMT -5
Gary (Grash) and me ran some tests on the combat abilities of Type VI demons. Balrogs are melee twinkies, btb. To be effective they have to break up the party by fear or a symbol, or gate in some help.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2008 14:46:02 GMT -5
I forget when the last time that I used one but it was dispatched instantaneously. And it wouldn't be the first time either! Although, I just recalled that I had a balrog in the Grogham campaign and they didn't want to go anywhere near it's vicinity being 2nd-3rd level (They saw fire and shadows in the crevasse and then decided not to investigate the other side of the upper ruin even though it was far below them.). You know, there is an expectation with high level players where they have all this "balrog readiness" that just puts them out like a match. When you hint "balrog" they just have all these contigencies ready just for it.
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Post by Scott on Dec 15, 2008 15:23:32 GMT -5
What about a demon amulet? Do you think Type VIs have them? The text is a little vague. At one point it implies it's only princes and lords, and at another point it mentions lesser demons. The ability to possess a character might change things.
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Post by amalric on Dec 15, 2008 15:42:12 GMT -5
My first character encountered a balrog way back in the day, when our party was around 8th-12th level, and we hamburgered him all-too easily. Reading over their stats later, I just never thought they were powerful enough ~ to me they should be of Tolkienesque power, especially if there are but six of them in existence. If you have a demon that can scare the bejesus out of even high-level PCs, you have an adversary worth the name. Possession of PCs would really get the wind up them!
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 15, 2008 16:01:51 GMT -5
What about a demon amulet? Do you think Type VIs have them? The text is a little vague. At one point it implies it's only princes and lords, and at another point it mentions lesser demons. The ability to possess a character might change things. Well, they'd have to be a "Juiblex" or a "Yeenoghu" in at least the "lord" category... it seemed that the demon "Marduk" in the novels was the big kahuna balrog. I never used him but that would definitely be a good "nuclear bomb" to drop on "big" players!
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 8:27:36 GMT -5
Re-reading I see lesser is relevant, and it is just the lords and princes that use amulets. Psionics is another ability that could make them more challenging. They have good magic resistance. Their weakness is that they really can’t deliver a lot of damage. Two higher level fighters get within striking range and it would be quick. Summon allies, break up the party, and pick them off one by one or in smaller groups would be the best tactics.
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 8:31:12 GMT -5
A truly Tolkien-esque balrog would need a lot of beefing up. Something like a cross between a Typve VI demon and the highest HD fire elemental maybe.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 9:26:28 GMT -5
Thats the rub with psionics, it always made it seem as if its a back up, I recall thats the first thing that always pops into my head after a "florwiping" of a demon: "Could i have done more with psionics?" Then I look it up and everything I roll up is already duplicated by common demon or specific demon attributes. There actually isn't much there in psionics.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 9:39:19 GMT -5
Giving a beefed up type VI additional shadow and fire elemental aspects thats separate might be interesting with their own HD and powers...
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Post by grodog on Dec 16, 2008 9:45:12 GMT -5
A truly Tolkien-esque balrog would need a lot of beefing up. Something like a cross between a Typve VI demon and the highest HD fire elemental maybe. I'll post my version of balrogs if I can dig it up before we leave on Thursday. I beefed them up considerably as part of my general upgrade/customization of demons. I also wrote a comparison between OD&D balrogs, AD&D type 6 demons, and the balrog in WD 38 or so for my gifted class, BITD
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 16, 2008 11:03:19 GMT -5
Here were my ideas for how to beef up the Type VI demons, without fundamentally changing them too much:
- HD is d10, per Eldritch Wizardry. I pre-rolled their hit points, giving them all above average (8 x 5.5 = 44 + 8 = 52) -- I made sure they all had above 60: Wendonai 61, Ter-Soth 63, Ndulu 66, Errtu 67, Balor 72, Alzoll 75.
- Strength equal to a giant of corresponding size, i.e. a stone giant: STR 20 and +8 damage. So when attacking with the large sword +1 damage is 10-21 (d12 + 9).
- When immolating itself with flames, anyone who gets within 10’ of the demon will take damage equal to being drawn in it with the whip, and anyone within 20’ of the demon will take half of that damage (c.f. wall of fire). So, for example, anyone attacking Wendonai with a melee weapon less than 10’ long would take 2-12 fire damage, and anyone within 20’ of Wendonai when it immolates itself would take 1-6 fire damage.
- This demon attacks with an oversized whip (range 15' to 40'). A successful attack with the demon's whip will entangle an opponent's limb or weapon (one limb 50%, two limbs 10%, weapon arm and weapon or 20% head) and drag the opponent towards the demon (c.f. whip rules in Unearthed Arcana).
- This demon can either cast darkness away from itself, or shed darkness from the center of its body in a 10’ radius. Although it is magical darkness, the demon can see through its own darkness.
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 11:47:44 GMT -5
I've had many of the same ideas. I've also thought about adding something like the rules for standing close to a wall of fire as a full time effect, and than higher damage for immolation.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 12:06:16 GMT -5
You know the simplest thing might just to be to give them a nice new magic item that heightens their "balrog-iness". Like a ring or something.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 16, 2008 13:39:35 GMT -5
The large +1 sword could be given some extra features, such as wounding, life stealing, vampiric regeneration or sharpness, or a "special purpose" power as listed for intelligent swords: blindness, confusion, disintigrate, fear, insanity, or paralysis.
I like the idea of monsters having magic items, especially things like unique demons. PCs load up on things like rings of regeneration, fire resistance, stoneskin spells, etc. -- so why wouldn't intelligent monsters and demons do this? There might be a whole line of Abyssal or Infernal magic items out there, only some usable by humans and demihumans...
An idea I had for a demonic magic item is a medallion, periapt or arm-band with sigils, glyphs, gems, etc. and each time the demon is attacked, there is a "stoneskin" or "instant regeneration" or "fire shield" effect. Each time this effect is triggered, a sigil/glyph/gem on the item flares up briefly, and then vanishes (or stops glowing or turns gray -- some visual change). Clever characters may notice this, and/or target the item itself.
A magical demon whip might have an effect similar to one of the tentacle rods described in G3: slow, total weakness in the struck limb(s), or numbness with -4 to hit for a number of rounds (6-9 rounds). There may even be a chance of permanent attribute loss (Dex), or multiple effects, depending on how many "tails" of the whip hit the character.
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Post by Scott on Dec 16, 2008 14:22:10 GMT -5
The sword is pretty wimpy. They're all based on Durin's Bane. Gothmog used a big axe. Unique weapons, and items in general, with a little more potency would help.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 16, 2008 14:50:27 GMT -5
How about a trap or trick as well? That's usually a good combo. Speaking of combos what was the balrog wiith GREYHAWK?
Don't forget magical environs.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 16, 2008 19:20:09 GMT -5
Here's what I did: Balor (Type VI) Balors have a strength of 18(00) to 19, and so the damage from their swords is 2 – 13 (+6 or +7). Additionally, these swords are typically Flame tongues (q.v.), thus accruing added damage to certain types of creatures. Note, also, that Balors take no damage from magical fire, unlike others of the demon-ilk! The following table can be used for the three size categories of Balor:
Hit Dice Dam. Bonus w/ Weapon Damage/Immolation X.P. Value 8 + 8 +6 2 – 12 3600 + 12/hp 8 + 16 +6 3 – 18 3900 + 14/hp 8 + 24 +7 4 – 24 4300 + 16/hp
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