GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Nov 28, 2008 3:36:30 GMT -5
I'm curious... nobody's affirming or denying that the Trolls might be putting out "CZ: The Dungeons", and the ad still appears on their website for said product. Could it be that this was developed far enough along and licensed so that we might still see it?
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Post by Scott on Nov 28, 2008 8:44:59 GMT -5
It's very frustrating. I don't think that was the initial plan when GG yanked the license, but who knows. GG really hasn't handled things well, so far.
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Nov 28, 2008 9:03:15 GMT -5
I'm curious... nobody's affirming or denying that the Trolls might be putting out "CZ: The Dungeons", and the ad still appears on their website for said product. Hello GT! Unless Gygax Games has a change of heart and decides to return to TLG for publication of this product, it is a dead deal. TLG has a web guy who updates all the shopping carts about once every month or so. I think they kept that product listed during the last few updates in hopes that things might change. They have not, unfortunately. Still, they might be holding out hope . . . I had a lot of work done on it already, and I had all the connections to the first component, The Upper Works, in place and worked out perfectly. Gary and I had many private conversations as to how many of the classic special encounter areas would be developed, and he also provided me with many more such springboards that I was to implement in The Dungeons and then the one or two following boxed sets as well. All of this work, however, collects dust since the time I was abruptly terminated by Gygax Games in August. If there is a new developer, he's had to start from scratch and is not privy to what Gary and I shared. Notwithstanding, he might be quite talented and does not need to know the specifics. |
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 28, 2008 10:36:53 GMT -5
Having this reiterated just pisses me off towards Gary in retrospect. Or makes me get paranoid that we're just seeing the major cause of all his problems brought to light. I don't know, its a shame that he couldn't go with dignity (a little too soon for all this BS) or with accolades that he deserved (my strange sister is obsessed with celebrity death lists and I've yet to see him on any of these even very mixed media ones.). Still when all is said and done, you can't help but like the guy and thats whats important. Not what his legacy is driving into the ground or what mainstream thought is on the subject. The best of S&S gaming is yet to come and Gary will always have a place there despite all detractors at least as far as I'm concerned. Let's punch Zeb Cook in the mouth... "Yah killed Gary when you showed up on Dragonsfoot, ya fuck, now look what we have to deal with!" Ahhh, I had to get that off my chest....  Seriously, theres nothing anybody here can do about whats going on so I'd just write it off. The update that I gave the guys on that shit last weekend was immediately dismissed as a unanimous "not again, oh well, who needs it?". Basically the conversation was, at this posthumous point, anything derivatively less than "pure retro Gygaxian" exactitude is most likely not going to go over with my gang so the future for a novelty "do Greyhawk" game is looking pretty bleak. they've got one chance and if its one iota derivatively less of a "Gary feeling product" than the Troll Lord ventures then its "good bye Gygax!" for me. Frankly, with all this insidiousness afoot I'm not impulse buying the first outing either. I'm waiting for the reviews and they better be spotless first! HARUMPH!!!! |
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Nov 28, 2008 12:28:45 GMT -5
Sorry, Gene. I wish things could've turned out for the better, and perhaps they still will, but I do sincerely sympathize with the frustrations of yourself and your friends. I'll be running a 10-hour marathon Castle Zagyg event at a New Hampshire Game Day on December 6, and I have 14 sign-ups. This looks to be my Castle Zagyg swan song. It's time for me to let the past be the past.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Nov 28, 2008 19:19:43 GMT -5
I guess that Jeff has expressed my big concern for any future product of CZ that he is not part of: All of the great "to be continued..." parts of the Upper Works might get discarded/forgotten, without Gary and Jeff to maintain the continuity! I don't want CZ from scratch. I love the Upper Works and have even done a bit of development here and there in it for my campaign (just in case any of the players have read it! Example: the Old Guard Kobold shaman has a 5% chance of getting divine intervention from the kobold deity should he call for it. This chance rises to 10% if the kobold leader is slain. This DI takes the form of all slain members of the group being raised from dead, and then all members healed! Heh! Heh!! Take that, overconfident PC's! ^__^
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ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Nov 29, 2008 10:10:08 GMT -5
I guess that Jeff has expressed my big concern for any future product of CZ that he is not part of: All of the great "to be continued..." parts of the Upper Works might get discarded/forgotten, without Gary and Jeff to maintain the continuity! Well, "might" is the operative word here. I'm sure any clever developer who takes the time to study Upper Works and makes a lot of notes might be able to maintain continuity and expand with great success. Of course, it will lack all the elements that Gary and I privately discussed. Good stuff! I'm honored that you enjoy Upper Works, GT. I look forward to hearing how you develop it further. Cheers, Jeff T. |
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 29, 2008 12:05:53 GMT -5
I guess that Jeff has expressed my big concern for any future product of CZ that he is not part of: All of the great "to be continued..." parts of the Upper Works might get discarded/forgotten, without Gary and Jeff to maintain the continuity! Well, "might" is the operative word here. I'm sure any clever developer who takes the time to study Upper Works and makes a lot of notes might be able to maintain continuity and expand with great success. Of course, it will lack all the elements that Gary and I privately discussed. Its like the meter of the City of Greyhawk, when I was doing that website, it had THIS and it didn't have THAT. There was a lot of that going on but I don't see how he arrived at Yggsburgh still. It has a lot of the strange elements (coffee shops, etc.) but not what he was talking about for Greyhawk at the time. I think where I didn't see eye to eye with Gary is what made my old campaign city very distinct and gave me new motivation to embrace those assumed ideas about GHC as distinct facets of my own city. As of now its taken on a life of its own although the old players think its still olde Greyhawk to them. It actually never was in the first place, "the city" of old 80's campaign days was a "product of my imagination" before adopting the box campaign's sobriquet and superfluous entities from the novels (san:thaddeus jink;gasgol.etc.) and various locales (the enclave; the strip; the prison workhous;etc.). Those Gh elements I removed in total and what remains is something completely lacking Gygax GH elements but they still think its "Greyhawk". The inn for example went back to its original name but they keep saying Green Dragon. I'm directly contradicting them but they still think this is what Greyhawk was like. The fools! Anyway, I see a lot of non-Gygax development in Legendary Adventures was made inside the box of known rpg products. I get the feeling that CZ without Gary will go that path of least resistance and we're going to get somebody's reflections of other TSR related crap (Undermountain, etc.). I just get that feeling that we're going to get a variant "Mona expedition" style venture without anyone to say "this is Greyhawk" anymore. Using my above example of a group not knowing the source of original ideas from "mined" ideas, a new designer can legitimately use their rpg experience from a so-called "original" campaign and not realize they're using cut and pasted material that a close friend used to make their "original" campaign. The "mining DM" culture of adapting material to campaigns is out there and they're everywhere. The chances of getting a Gygaxian Castle greyhawk is fucking realllll slim without Gary. Furthermore, can I just say that having certain rules, while having low key ones is the ultimate ideal, is not going to make this anymore "Gary" than lets say those "Goodman games" ventures that use low key rules (they still have the game-killing tang of the "Freakbegotten Realms" about them.). Show me a low key ruled adventure module in the last ten years that doesn't have some minimal game-breaking "wonk out" at some point. People don't know how to write adventures for everyone anymore. Its always some long prep time and yappity yap about the "world". Its like they used the basis of a good adventure to give the reading public a fucked up derivative in the translation. ISLE OF THE APE is a great resourced module but the premise (an island in another dimension with no future potential) and the lack of architectural/geographic identity (jungles;mundane caves;temporary magic corridors;no castle/dungeon when there should be) was what made it low on the totem pole. So even a great can fall flat to some degree. If you threw a castle with dungeon levels on the island it would've been the best module ever made hands down. What we're going to get is some predispositioned designers "take" on what CZ is and it ain't going to ring the clocktower twenty times, I can tell ya! Its going to be just another outig that you wouldn't buy. |
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Nov 30, 2008 9:57:44 GMT -5
I still find Rob's return to Wisconsin a month or two ago as mighty coincidental, considering how "anti-winter" he was! (Note: I'm not keen on winter either, but thanks to my Celtic & Nordic ancestors, I've yet to so much as start wearing a jacket to work... maybe when the temperature stays consistently at 20 or below! ^__^)
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