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The Sun
Jul 31, 2008 21:36:03 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jul 31, 2008 21:36:03 GMT -5
The 'Sun' travels around Oerth. Anybody ever given any thought to the nature of the Sun in the setting?
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Post by Scott on Aug 1, 2008 7:46:50 GMT -5
Pelor is probably involved somehow.
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The Sun
Aug 1, 2008 11:57:51 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Aug 1, 2008 11:57:51 GMT -5
I recall Gary mentioning the oligarch Benrai Helsos cleric of Pelor had a golden sun symbol but I don't have it in writing. However this makes sense why the Pholtites in the Dragon issue/Glossogarphy and in NIGHT ARRANT (Poztif have a silver sun). Plus Pholtus is marginalized in the text of the Dragon issue/Gazetteer as just directing the paths of the sun and the moon. So I'd see Pholtus as marginally related to the sun. And make Pelor the chief Eastern Oerik sun god. Although he might have other counterparts in other locations.
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The Sun
Aug 1, 2008 12:55:45 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Aug 1, 2008 12:55:45 GMT -5
The Guide, in regard to Pholtus directing the paths of the sun and moon, states it's just claims made by some followers, and not regarded as doctrine. Of the listed gods, I would consider Pelor the chief sun god. Pholtus is a lesser god, and his doctrine is too strict.
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The Sun
Aug 2, 2008 10:38:12 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2008 10:38:12 GMT -5
Did EGG explicitly say the Sun travels around the Oerth? I know the Guide says this, but it is "written by the Savant-Sage" who could be wrong... This geocentric view might just be part of the medieval flavor of the setting, not an astronomical fact about the setting.
Pelor is a greater sun god of the Flan and Pholtus is a lesser sun god of the Oeridians. They're just the sun gods of different cultures. At some point both became more 'commonly' worshipped throughout the Flanaess. What relationship they may have to each other, and to the actual flaming ball of gas known as the Sun, I have no idea...
EGG seemed to be linking the Sun and Wandering Stars (planets) with the gods, by having sun gods and a planet named Rao (one brief reference from a Gord book), but I don't think this idea was developed very much. I took this to be just a casual analogy to the beliefs in the ancient world that heavenly bodies were somehow linked to the gods, and by studying their movements one could somehow divine truths about the world (astrology and the relationship of the divine to divination, etc.).
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The Sun
Aug 2, 2008 11:32:18 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Aug 2, 2008 11:32:18 GMT -5
EGG never said it out of 'character', but in a setting where you can talk to sun gods and gods that wander the stars, I my thoughts were that the statement was more literal.. Both gods have common indicators as well, so I think they both pre-date either culture, but each was picked up on especially in the Oeridian and Flan cultures.
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The Sun
Aug 2, 2008 13:50:31 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Aug 2, 2008 13:50:31 GMT -5
The "savant-sage" doesn't really appear in the 1980 folio when he mentioned the sun going round the oerth. The "five wandering stars" are the known planets which he referred to but they still could be orbiting oerth. The weather in the world of Greyhawk from issue 68 (DEC 1982) was later incorporated into the 1983 glossography sans all the real world references but its still 99% real world extrapolation done by someone not really involved in GH (David Axler?) and then homogenized into "fantasy land" in 1983 by Hammack. Allen Hammack was "one of the few good guys" so he's got chops however who's to say all this "precipitation nonsense" was just glossed by Gary over for the Glossography (forgive the pun) and the astronomical data slipped through the cracks. Frankly, I can see this happening as it all seems rather dull (long charts, percentages, barometer readings, etc.). There might have been a fantastic version of the oerth system if it was actually considered for a Gygax adventure. Right? We'll never know...
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The Sun
Aug 2, 2008 15:58:16 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2008 15:58:16 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to say the fantastic/geocentric astronomy doesn't fit the context of the World of Greyhawk. I was just wondering if EGG had ever confirmed it was the case, or not, maybe in a a conversation at some point.
In a fantasy universe, it certainly could be the case that the heavenly bodies move around the Oerth on tracks set by gods associated with them, and have esoteric meanings in the movements as well... (i.e, maybe Yestro Bilnigd's "Astrology, Divinity and Mankind" is not merely the work of a mountebank).
I tend to agree that most gods -- especially the greater gods -- would predate human cultures, but that doesn't have to be the case, as there are precedents of mortals becoming gods. Pholtus could have been an Oeridian who rose to the ranks of godhood, for example (although his physical description is more stereotypically Suloise). I usually interpret the gods who have both a racial origin and are common in most areas as having been introduced to the Flanaess by that particular race (at least the worship of).
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The Sun
Aug 2, 2008 16:37:38 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2008 16:37:38 GMT -5
"Exposing it to the penetrating light and flame of the Sun" is one of the possible suggested ways of destroying an artifact or relic. I've always wondered what that meant, and what that would really entail in an adventure scenario. Taking the artifact out of Oerth's atmosphere and into the sphere or track the Sun is in? That whole section of the DMG is very mythical. I imagine high level characters riding a Chariot of Sustarre above the clouds into the Upper Sky and thence into the Luminiferous Aether, having a chance to succeed only with the guidance of Celestian...
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Post by Scott on Aug 3, 2008 7:46:24 GMT -5
Generalizations… Since all of the listed gods are, more or less, the gods that are commonly worshipped in the central Flanaess, the C should mean something else. I interpret the C in various ways: A pre-migration cross-pantheon god, or a being that has reached the status of ‘god’ since the cataclysms (Zagyg, for example). For listings like OC, I interpret that as a pre-migration, cross-pantheon god that was held in especially high regard by the group indicated by the racial designation listed with the C. Such gods could have an origin that pre-dates the listed group and that group just had a special affinity for the being, or the being rose from the listed group and worship spread to other groups. Thinking about it a bit, I’d say Pholtus would be a good fit for the second group, maybe an early Oeridian human cleric that ascended to the divine ranks, and his worship spread to other groups (due to the tenacious nature of his followers). His current appearance, that reflects his divine nature, may be different than his mortal appearance.
Scott
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The Sun
Aug 3, 2008 15:18:23 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Aug 3, 2008 15:18:23 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to say the fantastic/geocentric astronomy doesn't fit the context of the World of Greyhawk. I was just wondering if EGG had ever confirmed it was the case, or not, maybe in a a conversation at some point. Not to me at least. Could be... Not necessarily though. Generalizations… Since all of the listed gods are, more or less, the gods that are commonly worshipped in the central Flanaess, the C should mean something else. I interpret the C in various ways: A pre-migration cross-pantheon god, or a being that has reached the status of ‘god’ since the cataclysms (Zagyg, for example). For listings like OC, I interpret that as a pre-migration, cross-pantheon god that was held in especially high regard by the group indicated by the racial designation listed with the C. Such gods could have an origin that pre-dates the listed group and that group just had a special affinity for the being, or the being rose from the listed group and worship spread to other groups. Thinking about it a bit, I’d say Pholtus would be a good fit for the second group, maybe an early Oeridian human cleric that ascended to the divine ranks, and his worship spread to other groups (due to the tenacious nature of his followers). His current appearance, that reflects his divine nature, may be different than his mortal appearance. Scott I don't know. He once said all gods listed and unlisted are represented in the City of Greyhawk but that city might be a big exception. To what is central or what "C" really means. I wish I had the quote but I can't seem to find it. However heres a bunch of "deity minutiae" from Gary himself to chew on and rub your head over ( ):I once had a conversation about Iuz being found on an alternate World of Greyhawk and Gary said In another conversation on explaining what was going on in FORGOTTEN TEMPLE he said: I further inquired just what was an "avatar" in World of Greyhawk as he threw the term around liberally and there was never any mention of the term "avatar" early on. (Specifically, this was from a statement that I had made regarding Infestix being "just Nerull's avatar"): He followed up with: So this doesn't really answer much but still it just goes to show how far ranging his thoughts were on these matters. Frankly, from my perspective, he didn't like to talk about GH in what he saw as "a commercial way" but he would always come back to that "published beast" to get set the record straight with the fans.
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