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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 7:58:30 GMT -5
Isle of the Ape was the end. Where have others taken their Greyhawk? Has anybody considered where the confrontation with Iggwilv was going? It seems like she should just bolster the forces of Iuz, since I can't see her putting together much of a force of her own in such a short time.
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GT
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 9:24:34 GMT -5
Well, I never really "went there", but I agree with you--given the direction things were going, I think that Iggwilv would align with Iuz and manipulate things from behind the scenes (with or without the assistance of Zuggtmoy!). Iuz was more of a "doer" while Iggwilv was more of a "general". And both of them would be thinking that they could eliminate the other if they became a liability. Also, given Gary's placement of the EEG in at least two localities, perhaps the one was working on summoning back the other two (they already had forces among giants and drow, and Gary had mentioned some sort of connection with illithids as well...) I think that Lolth would have been effectively "removed from the battlefield" and I don't think that Graz'zt would have actively interfered on the Prime whether or not his century of banishment had ended. I also don't think that Tharizdun would have become an active player--that was more of Gary metaphorically ending the world. So the Scarlet Brotherhood, outside of Slave Lord activity, woul dprobably have remained in the background for now. And of course the Circle of Eight would've continued to be active behind the scenes. I'd have to go back and read Gary's Greyhawk column from the Dragon, but if Iuz and Iggwilv went active, I think that the Horned Society would have gone into a holding campaign--just trying to keep Iuz out! I was thinking about possible new modules, and I could see about ten or twelve more (maybe) along with Castle Greyhawk, but Oerik was starting to become "Dungeon-intensive". Further development of Maure, Greyhawk, City Out Of Mind, and portions of the Underworld would've come, but in order to keep pushing out modules, Gary would have had to further develop other regions of Oerth. Of course, Shadowland was perenially promised, and Gary and others were working on the Elemental Planes, so those would've been coming at some point. And probably a Gary-version of The Manual of the Planes...
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 9:30:30 GMT -5
Well, according to Gary, he planned on Iuz, and The Horned Society, along with the Fists, and some other entity, possibly Ket, invading the south. The Circle of Eight would have been active in fighting Iuz, and Robilar against the HS.
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 9:32:47 GMT -5
In that environment, an adventure set in the Vesve seems like it would have been a good choice for a wilderness adventure.
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 9:33:36 GMT -5
Iuz and the Horned Society uniting? That's odd as they fought each other... and what made Robilar want to fight the Horned Society (both Lawful Evil)? ^__^
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 9:34:49 GMT -5
I set B2 near the Veverdyva on the fringe of the Vesve--hence, The Borderlands! ^__^
I had B2 in the Vesve also.
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 9:40:22 GMT -5
Iuz and the Horned Society uniting? That's odd as they fought each other... and what made Robilar want to fight the Horned Society (both Lawful Evil)? ^__^ In the novels, they fought, but in the Guide they were allies. Also, Robilar was LE by nature, but not sworn to any LE cause. From what I know about Gary's campaign, I think all of the characters should have been chaotic, by my understanding of the alignment system.
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 9:48:02 GMT -5
I place B2 near the Vesve too.
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 9:51:49 GMT -5
It seemed more to me that Iuz and the Horned Society had a truce (although they are mentioned as being on favorable terms in the Gazeteer), as in Dragon #56, Gary states that Iuz attacks northern Furyondy without even telling the Horned Society, and then the Horned Society decides to take advantage of the confusion by launching an incursionof their own, but are in turn assaulted from the North. Not so much working together by the two as using the other as a distraction... And what I mean about Robilar is: with his forces and stronghold shattered by the forces of Good after the Temple incident, why would he care what the Horned Society did?
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 9:53:22 GMT -5
From what I know about Gary's campaign, I think all of the characters should have been chaotic, by my understanding of the alignment system. Well, you're right there... ^__^
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 9:55:03 GMT -5
The way Gary described it, both the Circle's and Robilar's actions seemed like opportunistic grabs, and nothing personal.
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 10:00:46 GMT -5
Aaahhhh, now that would make sense! But my next question is: where did Robilar get his new forces from? Some escaped with him, and he had Otto of course, but it seemed to me that he had become a bit of a wandering loner after the Temple...
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 10:02:59 GMT -5
This may have been something Gary came up with early on, because when we were talking about it, he seemed to slip back and forth between his home campaign map, and the published map. Robilar's stronghold was much closer to the HS is the home campaign, for example, so it make a little more sense.
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 10:11:12 GMT -5
I think Gary started cooking this up before the fall of Robilar. He was off the coninent I believe at the end. You could say Robilar had returned and was trying to rebuild. Knock off a few leaders, and 'recruit' a few new orc soldiers to set up shop in the Bandit Kingdoms, but I think Rob's plans for Robilar returning had him based on the east coast of the Wooly Bay in the western Bright Desert or the Abbor Alz and leading a bunch of Griffin-riding marauders.
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 12:30:19 GMT -5
Yeah, since they had pretty much gone separate ways after 1986, Rob and Gary probably had different ideas on what became of Robilar--and neither agreed with the T$R line! ^__^ A series of battles in that region (Furyondy, Iuz, Horned Society, Veluna, Shield Lands, etc.) could have been fun; but a continent-wide conflict (ala "Greyhawk Wars") could (and was... ) only be detrimental to the setting. Gary and company were war-gamers, after all, but a destruction of an entire campaign setting is/was commercial suicide! How may fans left after all of that nonsense? The question is rhetorical--at Purdue, it killed off a fanbase that had existed from 1974 til 1985; and many never came back. I eventually shifted to Mythus, not returning to AD&D until the web brought back 1E fans (Scott and Gene being of note... ) and Gary and Rob started putting out "old school style" material again.
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Post by Scott on Jun 22, 2008 13:06:56 GMT -5
Switching to Oligarch mode...
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Post by GT on Jun 22, 2008 13:09:54 GMT -5
Beam me aboard, Scotty!! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 22, 2008 14:45:57 GMT -5
I don't know. TSR was pretty rotten about quarter a way into the 80's. Last year, I was illuminated to the antics behind the scenes and after some thought I think we can consider ourselves lucky that we even seen a 1983 boxed set or any of the related modules. From what I was told it seemed that even TOEE was a dampered product. Although the original elements (circa the 70's) shine through there is an awful aura of neglect within that work (cheap maps, cut and pasted "extras", etc.). I think for a hypothetical Greyhawk you have to go way back and reset the clock. Use what was produced after 1982 and on as a guideline or perhaps just with a a heavy "grain of salt". Then you might start to get a clearer picture. BATTLESYSTEM or a suitable Chainmail upgrade that is more synched in. BS came across like an attempt to drive out GH. BASIC SETS or a suitable updated Greyhawk friendly versus the autonomous "ick" feeling you get with the 1981 and on versions. ORIENTAL ADVENTURES Something that has the S&S punch of D&D (i.e."fighters" and "magic-users" aren't Western sobriquettes so wheres the fantasy? etc.) SURVIVAL GUIDES While these were worthless so was the GH Weather chart. However, if these were halfway towards the Weather chart's style they might have actually been useful. I can imagine an attempt at Eastern Oerik's endless tunnels being featured in related hypothetical GH adventures. GAZETTEERS Now WOG had the first of the line of this mentality. Then subsequent other "worlds" did their take by having piecemeal areas "detailed". The truth is none of thos later piecemeal copycats gave us anything to use hence their failure. So what would a Gygax "gazetteer book" look like? Woiuld he even have done one? This is a reallly good question. These need to be rethought to get a true picture of Greyhawk. Directly smushing together things to get some network of characters is a major problem. They were in the background of the Gord yarns but it had to be for the identity to show especially in the non-TSR novels. However if something was set in GH before the early 80's, it wasn't built on that "connect the dots" style. They just started pulling that at the bitter end. The way I see it, you can look at the WG series like it was "laying the pipe" for the other worlds by being so "connect the dots" in the end. If there was a GH continuance then there wouldn't be those competiting worlds present. So one can largely ignore all the "WOG movers and shakers" because it'll just lead you down that dark and derivative road that there is so much of anyway. The heart of WOG is the new adventure in a different place with new elements. Thats always a factor to be considered all these new elements. On the home campaign side I left WOG so long ago I wouldn't even know how to jumpstart it. Except to run through the old adventures but who hasn't played everything by now? In the world of the internet everybody has PDFs of everything *. I think if one would try to see "what Iuz was going to do" that there are so many areas that fall short on antagonists that you would have to create them to make a big picture. Who is the "bastard of the Sheldomar" for example? *I remember that I said I was going to run TOEE about 8 years ago and these new players had photocopies and one guy had it on his laptop. So when they showed up at the TOEE site, I said it was missing and you should have seen their faces. WHAT A BASTARD! Seriously, that is so pathetic. To have players "doing their homework" before the game. What do they have to do if caught? Report to the DM's office?
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Rhuvein
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Post by Rhuvein on Jul 15, 2008 12:35:32 GMT -5
Very interesting thread. Lots of food for thought. Heh, too bad there's not a "LOST" GH module or something. Maybe Gary wrote one but kept it from TSR/Wizards??
Perhaps, The City of Greyhawk as mentioned in the other thread.
;D
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