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Post by Scott on May 4, 2008 7:22:08 GMT -5
So if EGG hadn’t been ousted, how do you think the Gord series would have differed? I don’t think Gary planned on destroying Oerth when he first started the series
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Post by GRWelsh on May 4, 2008 9:57:44 GMT -5
I don't know, but the whole plotline with the tripartite artifact was laid down pretty early. I think the ending still would have had Gord as the Eternal Champion battling against Tharizdun, and if Oerth was not destroyed, seriously altered in any case.
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Post by Scott on May 4, 2008 10:05:32 GMT -5
I don't think so. Gary was really hitting his stride with Greyhawk. I couldn't see him doing anything that would have radically altered the setting if he hadn't lost it. I'm guessing Gord would have thwarted T's plans and saved the Oerth.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on May 4, 2008 10:49:17 GMT -5
The ending was clearly altered to "lead into" Mythus...but something involving Big T was in the works. It simply became a catharsis to wreck the old Oerth and bring in the new Aerth... (or Yarth, as it was originally called).
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Post by GRWelsh on May 4, 2008 14:04:11 GMT -5
I always wonder if the difference would be, not so much in the plotting and conclusion, but the quality of the writing. I had the feeling the effort wasn't as strong in the last two books of the series.
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Post by geneweigel on May 4, 2008 15:41:27 GMT -5
The failure to the fans is really such a sore during that GORD THE ROGUE era that its hard to put it together. All that I know (as a fan of Gary Gygax) is that during that GTR time lots of the wrong people people got rich at my expense and there was nothing that you could buy to make it better again. "Gord" ended because it had to. He didn't have much of a choice. I know we would have all liked to have seen a repaired D&D fully integrated with Gord's world but I believe that they killed his technique with all the years of legal woes. So there is a pressure seen within the GTR books that was not seen previously which was probably nervousness over more legal woes.
How do you see through that aura of creative pressure?
I would say that whats giving us that feeling that something is missing from GTR (that you don't feel in GH Adventures by Gary) can go two ways. Either:
A) Totally original by itself. He deliberately avoided using what he intended for the whole non-TSR GTR series to save it for something that he wasn't going to lose.
or
B) An Immediate Reminder of Other D&D Material, Whatever he intended was going to be so integrated in D&D that there was no way that it could go through another publisher.
Thats what we're looking at most likely whats missing has pinches of both A & B.
Wheres the tip of the hat to the all the products? That would have definitely been in there. He had the Giant gang (Obmi & Eclavdra) in GA:AOE so I could imagine instead of using them again like he did in GTR there instead would have been other notable characters from products and more salutes to the game group. The GH castle stuff for example was so diluted in that very short story that you know that could easily have taken up a huge trilogy in itself.
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Post by Scott on May 5, 2008 7:09:49 GMT -5
I always wonder if the difference would be, not so much in the plotting and conclusion, but the quality of the writing. I had the feeling the effort wasn't as strong in the last two books of the series. I've felt that as well. There was an energy and excitement in the early stories that I couldn't sense in the later material. |
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Post by geneweigel on May 5, 2008 9:02:05 GMT -5
I think that he'd also introduce other main characters if he was going to do a different take on Greyhawk aside from the adventures of Gord. He said to me that his reasoning behind the creation of Gord as a protagonist was "that he had no baggage" and he wanted to write adventures that could get around what happened in the Greyhawk campaign instead of elaborating on stuff that might contradict later on. He seemed to have a circle of eight thing planned for sure. Most likely in the form of a novel and adventure series. I think the major blockades that prevented this from happening (new Gygax stuff from a GH restoration) in later years was just the average uninformed latter day fan's faithful adherence to post-Gygax miasma. The companies (Hasbro, etc.) can't go against what they were hearing from the mob especially by the very vocal and confused Gygax detractors. Now that its all said and done you can't even use this experience (holding out for a GH restoration) in any manner towards an end. It just was a hardly noticed protest in a sea of indifference... That said, I have no feelings towards those adversities anymore and I'm going to ignore them even more. Old Greyhawk lives. Its like "The Monolith" and us old GHers we're like monekymen playing with our.... Wait! Uh, wait....er...Old GH is like "The Force" and us old GHers are like the Ewoks.... Urck! *^* Hold on! GH is like the Great Krell Machine on Altair IV and us old GHers are like the crew of the C57D all lined up to get a date with Dr Morbius' daughter but we're being picked off by Monsters from the Id! There! Thats the analogy. No wait but I get to be Leslie Nielsen and if not I'll settle for Richard "Oscar Goldman" Anderson as Chief Quinn...  |
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Post by Scott on May 5, 2008 9:43:40 GMT -5
Sometimes you crack me up.
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Post by geneweigel on May 5, 2008 10:20:30 GMT -5
Seriuously though, Tharizdun would have been defeated for all time of course but with less finality. Most likely by an existing or unknown "neutrality" based plot device. Perhaps the two part sword would have been his end. The "fog" created by false productions like "Oriental Adventures" and "Sagard the Barbarian" might also lend a clue of intent. An orient that had a ring of Greyhawk truth to it and likewise a treatment of the northern lands of Oerik in some way that didn't conflict like those did being wrought in a hostile maner. From the GTR books, I'd say that in addition to the well known intended elaboration on GHC (of course) that there was going to be something for Nyrond. Perhaps this might take the form of whatever GHC's produced shape was to be. A boxed set? I'd have to say the same for Keoland but just as a out of the blue guess. Any notion for Aquaria "might-have-beens" would have to remain as perpetual "might-have-beens" I can see it being Gygax-ised into a new form. If things were "good" most of the novels would have strayed elsewhere instead of "almost greyhawk" retreaded ground to give us new lands to fathom. What else could possibly be on the plate? A Trampier return would be most likely in the correct environs as well. Perhaps a complete takeover of the art department can be imagined once the hostiles are "dreamed away". Trampier's Greyhawk Legend and Lore comes to mind. A fully illustrated book in the style of Deities & Demigods. |
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Post by Scott on May 5, 2008 10:34:55 GMT -5
I guess it's how the threat of Tharizdun destroying the world would have been handled if Gary didn't decide to have Tharizdun destroy the world that I'm curious about. How would Gord have saved the day, etc.
There's a whole bucket of other Greyhawk 'what if?'s I have, but I was just thinking about the Gord thing recently, and never really considered that Gary being ousted had a big effect on the plot/conclusion.
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Post by geneweigel on May 5, 2008 11:27:05 GMT -5
Maybe a reduction in power to a lesser god and/or perhaps Gord would have been the next Tharizdun but some kind of weird Neutral version as the conclusion (that is trapped in another dimension trying to escape, etc.). His viability as an adventurer seemed to be getting more limited as the story progressed into this cosmic battle thing. So if he did destroy big T I could see him being relegated to no more stories and the gears being switched to new characters.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on May 5, 2008 17:17:02 GMT -5
Gary said that there was more to the whole Tharizdun-Entropy thing, and that the story wasn't really over. As to what that meant, I don't know. My "pet" solution is to have had the spirit of Tsojcanth returned to Oerth once again and join with Gord to utterly annihalate the Dark One... but that's just me! ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on May 5, 2008 17:56:16 GMT -5
Well, I was kind of looking at it like its written by a variant " Gary of Earth-3" in a " What If Gary Had Gotten A Scrupulous Investor To Remove The Blumes?" kind of reality... |
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Post by Merkholz on May 6, 2008 2:20:33 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Gary had an entire line of Gord books, with a basic plotline, planned before being ousted. I know Gary said that he always had envisioned Gord to be the descendant of the Cat Lord and a champion of Neutrality but I'm not so sure when reading the first two books. They read more like the novel versions of the regional updates in the Dragon.
I'm pretty certain that Gary wrote the last books in a more or less desperate rush throwing in every idea and concept that he had from various projects (Stoink, Shadowlands etc.) to make a coherent whole. It was as much a work of frustration, ending in the destruction of Oerth, as a work of love IMO. Gord began as a skilled adventurer but ended up a divine being and an all-powerful cosmic entity, not exactly what I imagined Greyhawk would be about.
I think they are great books and my Greyhawk is richer for having them but I don't think they would have been done the same way if Gary had been left with TSR. Perhaps we're in luck, though, cause the books might never have been written if Gary had to save a company and write 2E.
M
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ghul
Enchanter
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Post by ghul on May 8, 2008 8:52:56 GMT -5
I don't believe they would have been the same, either.
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Post by geneweigel on May 8, 2008 9:43:22 GMT -5
I don't Merkholz regarding your last line. Ithink I would've rather have had Gary on the D&D team indefinitely. I think we're much poorer today because he wasn't. Suffice to say he would have done them eventually although in different form.
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Post by amalric on May 15, 2008 5:57:06 GMT -5
I think I would've rather have had Gary on the D&D team indefinitely. I think we're much poorer today because he wasn't. Agreed. |
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