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Trolls
Nov 12, 2005 14:54:08 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Nov 12, 2005 14:54:08 GMT -5
How hard is it to kill these guys? We used to plat that you could chop away at it, and it had to regenerate back from whatever negative total it had. A new troll can grow back from complete dismemberment in 3-18 rounds. I'm now thinking that a troll can't be knocked unconscious for more than a round. If it can return from dismemberment that fast, than I wouldn't think it would take more than a round to return from a sword stroke that brought it to zero. How do you handle trolls regeneration?
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Trolls
Nov 14, 2005 9:24:32 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Nov 14, 2005 9:24:32 GMT -5
I've used 3 rounds as per the book before it starts moving again. However, after reading THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS last year, I believe that the "troll numbers" are derived from the actions of that scene. If you wanted to get "technical" about "single strokes" (as prick players are always willing to do.) and when is it "back up" then don't forget about all the combat abstraction in D&D. I'm prone to give DM combat interpretations ("You killed him in one stroke", etc.) but perhaps it should be avoided in the case of the troll for smoother play.
BTW, after reading THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS I have come to the conclusion that the "regeneration" is an interpretation of the legendary troll's aversion to iron and steel (Anderson reiterates this early in the text about 2 chapters before the actuall troll encounter). The only thing that is "harming" him in the encounter is iron and steel (weapons and horseshoes). How about a wooden stake? ;)N.B. Anderson also gives the troll kinship with the ghoul. My expert opinion? These are the "demons" of Anderson's twilight empire and this regeneration is one interpretation of iron weapons doing full damage in D&D.
When I wrote up that Greater Troll thing, I must have had some "idiot savant intuition" on the "demon/undead" connection when I wrote the 666th complete regeneration produces a demonic "Dark Troll". Note that the thoul connection must derived from the THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS source as well.
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Trolls
Nov 26, 2005 16:34:10 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 26, 2005 16:34:10 GMT -5
I think it depends on how you interpret a "new troll," in that passage about 3-18 rounds. This may not be a full-sized troll, or at maximum hit points equivalent to the troll it was "spawned" from. I have always imagined this as a troll is hacked up and part of it (like a hand) rolls under a table or falls down a storm drain or pit, and begins "spawning" into a new and separate troll -- even if the bulk of the parent troll is burned or has acid poured upon its parts. Remember that scene from John Carpenter's "The Thing" when most of it was burned but part of it (a head) slid off and started growing legs and tried to get away?
Considering a troll's rubbery and mossy nature, it might even be interesting to come up with house rules about cutting parts off it. For example, doing a certain amount of damage or rolling a 20 with a slashing weapon takes a hand or foot off of the thing.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Trolls
Nov 27, 2005 9:24:00 GMT -5
Post by GT on Nov 27, 2005 9:24:00 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure where Anderson got the trolls regenerative powers... certainly Grendel (a troll) didn't regrow its arm when Beowulf removed it, and Norse accounts of trolls never seemed to indicate this. As for the aversion to iron/steel--that's straight out of Celtic and Norse legends of faerie creatures (the sidhe, et al) and the alfar/svartalfar.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Trolls
Nov 27, 2005 9:35:22 GMT -5
Post by GT on Nov 27, 2005 9:35:22 GMT -5
As to the regeneration: I too play the 3 hp/round starting 3 rounds after initial damage. Note that as long as a severed part remains unburned, the troll will not regrow it, but rather re-attach it. Some sort of cellular memory, I guess. If a partis destroyed, I would say regeneration would take slightly longer (maybe as per a ring of regeneration...?). Under straight AD&D rules, this was only pertinent if a sword of sharpness or a vorpal blade were used; but I did have a simple critical/location chart I could use for such situations to add to the fun. Of course, said chart was useless for slimes, oozes, fungoids, etc. and those i forced the PC's to pound at point by point. ^__^
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Trolls
Nov 27, 2005 11:05:08 GMT -5
Post by GT on Nov 27, 2005 11:05:08 GMT -5
I like the "Thing" reference... I never thought to use that as an analogy for the AD&D troll, but it works on many levels.
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Trolls
Nov 27, 2005 15:21:56 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Nov 27, 2005 15:21:56 GMT -5
Anderson had the pieces "reknitting" in his words. One scene he describes the hand as a green spider.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Trolls
Nov 28, 2005 5:40:46 GMT -5
Post by GT on Nov 28, 2005 5:40:46 GMT -5
Yeah... any idea where he came up with that??
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Trolls
Nov 28, 2005 11:24:11 GMT -5
Post by guest on Nov 28, 2005 11:24:11 GMT -5
Can a troll be assassinated? It's clear that backstab would work, but completely killing something that can be cut to pieces...?
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Trolls
Nov 28, 2005 13:37:06 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Nov 28, 2005 13:37:06 GMT -5
I'd probably let it work, but only untill the regeneration starts.
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Trolls
Nov 28, 2005 14:18:12 GMT -5
Post by guest on Nov 28, 2005 14:18:12 GMT -5
Where would you start -10?
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Trolls
Nov 28, 2005 16:35:32 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Nov 28, 2005 16:35:32 GMT -5
Zero. A troll can can grow back from complete dimemberment in 3-18 rounds.
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Trolls
Jul 26, 2006 18:58:17 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jul 26, 2006 18:58:17 GMT -5
Do you think damage inflicted by fire or acid should be healed at the regeneration rate, or would you consider that damage that would need normal rest to heal?
Scott
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Trolls
Jul 26, 2006 19:09:04 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Jul 26, 2006 19:09:04 GMT -5
In that same Anderson story they throw the pieces in the fire while they're alive and moving and it destroys them. But they had to hold them in the fire it seems.
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Trolls
Jul 26, 2006 19:21:45 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Jul 26, 2006 19:21:45 GMT -5
Under ring of regeneration it states: So I guess you could apply it to the troll as soon as the fire is off it begins regenerating again. What is it? A pet troll?
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Trolls
Jul 26, 2006 20:04:03 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jul 26, 2006 20:04:03 GMT -5
Just musing.
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Trolls
May 22, 2007 17:00:07 GMT -5
Post by Scott on May 22, 2007 17:00:07 GMT -5
I've been pondering this again because of a recent encounter I DMed. I believe the text in the MM stating that a whole troll can grow from a tiony piece in 3-18 rounds is a typo; I think the text should say 3 – 18 turns. With the standard regeneration rate of 3 HP/round, I can’t see a whole troll springing from a single finger in three minutes when a wounded troll won't even be whole again in three rounds, 30 minutes or more is a little easier to picture. Regardless, it is how I will be running my trolls from now on.
Scott
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Trolls
May 24, 2007 11:24:05 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on May 24, 2007 11:24:05 GMT -5
I've been over this so many times through the years and that formula is replicated for the trolls in the FIEND FOLIO but that IS a sketchy book. That said, I don't think at the end of that time it would be a full hit point troll though any way you slice it so they're only dangerous when mixed with distraction.
I think "3-18 melee rounds" can be visualized as a quick random interpretation for the abstract melee of AD&D however if you visually describe what happened then you should override the roll.
For example, if the party physically separates the parts then I would say maximum time (18 rounds)
Technically, you could start the new trolls with 3 hp or even 1 hp only no matter what the time and it still be AD&D by the numbers.
Right?
Who's to say someone with zero hit points isn't still "whole"?
The whole thing is absurd. You have this creature from this book with a property thats probably universal to all nether dwellers in that "World of Ogier The Dane" yet placed in S&S game form it gets stuck to this one prime material humanoid and to replicate its powers seems to have always been a "D&D taboo".
Sure, its a salute to Anderson in this one creature but it still doesn't have the "elves are demons" feel that brought the regenerating troll into easy understanding and acceptance. If you look at it again, the D&D troll can be looked at as an alien from another world more akin to a demon. And with this view in mind, the indigenous troll is the ogre. So technically one could add more of this chaotic nastiness from Anderson's world with every monster with regenerating powers to a campaign. However that said I would reinforce it with they are all immortal so iron weapons only effect them and force them to regenerate like in the book.
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Trolls
Jun 2, 2007 1:03:19 GMT -5
Post by gantry on Jun 2, 2007 1:03:19 GMT -5
Trolls...
I DMed these as well. We came to the conclusion that some finality was necessary, at lest as far as we were concerned. Burning the whole thing as per the rules was fine; however, we also allowed that if a trolls members where cut apart by a flametongue or was blasted by a fireball, then the parts would be cauterized or "pan seared"and couldn't regrow as per the ring.
Of course, as in the above, AD&D doesn't really get into what a sword or axe actually hits on a body and might sever. My DMing was always very descriptive in combat, so I never had much trouble with DMing troll hands hanging onto a neck or what not.
But building a bonfire to burn carcasses in a dungeon or cavern is tough work. I always just allowed oil to burn them away (sort of damaging the cells with high temps so they couldn't function)and left it at that. I guess I was looking to keep things moving a bit and not over taxing the players too much. Probably I was being too lenient, but for whatever its worth.
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Trolls
Jun 3, 2007 14:27:17 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jun 3, 2007 14:27:17 GMT -5
Another interesting feature of trolls: per the DMG appendix E, they're only surprised 1 in 6....
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