Age of Great Sorrow

[GRWelsh]

In the Guide to the World of Greyhawk (p. 9) it states in CY 213/OR 857 that the “Age of Great Sorrow commences.” We can assume this is written from the point of view of history by the Savant Sage of Greyhawk when he completed his work in CY 576. Does anyone have any insight into what EGG considered the determining factor(s) for what made the Age of Great Sorrow to commence? As DMs of the World of Greyhawk did you ever determine what this was? It wasn't long after, in CY 254/OR 898, that the heir of Viceroy Stinvri was crowned King Thrommel I of Furyondy in Dyvers, and this seems to be the first splintering off of a major realm from the Great Kingdom. I have always assumed something like this: when the king of the Great Kingdom of Aerdy was crowned as the Overking in Rauxes in CY 1/OR 645 that was somewhat of a Charlemagne moment, or like Caesar Augustus becoming the Emperor. It was the beginning of a glorious era of expansion and lawful and mostly benign rule. But in time, there were Overkings who became tyrannical, unwise, neglectful or decadent, and this led to unrest within the Great Kingdom, with rulers like Caligula or Nero in power. Some 'breaking point' event prompted the crowning of a king in Furyondy, and this eventually snowballed into other outer holdings being lost as well, perhaps further instigated by the invasion of nomad raiders that the Overkings didn't deal with effectively. There could have also been civil wars, internal strife, or assassinations in that time, leading to dynastic changes. I also tend to see the rise of Keoland's imperialistic ambitions to possibly be a reaction to some of this. Thoughts?

[geneweigel]

If you follow the dates in the "POLITICAL DIVISIONS" entries its all chaos but the one thing in common is accumulation of power whether to expand or counter expand. So it must be an analogy to their wargame shenanigans take for example "Perrenland" is formed from countering Furyondy and Ket. The "Keoland Empire", (oops I fell asleep and pressed "post")....

...and "Aerdy" being giant blob states, with the sketchy Bandits/Barbarian/Nomads, and the once Iuz-less "in legend only" evil lands coming into their present forms, etc

[Scott]

My assumption is it’s when the policies and rulers of the Great Kingdom started going bad. When the stuff that motivated the outer dependencies to break away started happening.

[GRWelsh]

I like that assumption. In AD&D alignment terms, perhaps the Great Kingdom started out as LG, then shifted towards neutral, and eventually to evil tendencies.

Here are some more notes to think about: "Once the most powerful force for order and good, the Aerdians have declined over the last century to an unspeakable state of decadency. After a millenium of leadership, its rulers and nobles turned to evil and irrationality" (Guide p. 23). OR 428 is given as the "Founding of the Kingdom of Aerdy" and OR 1220/CY 576 as when the "Guide to the World of Greyhawk completed" (Guide p. 9). We could interpret that to mean that even prior to the founding of the Kingdom of Aerdy the chieftains and heroes of the Aerdi people were already providing good examples of leadership in the Flanaess, since OR 187 is the date for "Oerid migrations east of peak point" (Guide p. 9). I take that last quote to mean the peak of the Oerid migrations into the Flanaess from the standpoint of populations moving in. So, by OR 1220, the Oeridians do have over a millenium of history in the Flanaess to draw upon. "The strongest of the Oeridian tribes, the Aerdi, settled the riche fields east of the Nyr Dyv, and there founded the Kingdom of Aerdy, eventually to be renamed the Great Kingdom. After several decades of increasing growth, power, and prestige, Aerdy embarked upon a series of conquests, the greatest of which was the the defeat of the Nyrondal cavalry squadrons at the Battle of a Fortnight's Length. Thereafter, Aerdy was known as the Great Kingdom, whose monarch held sway from the Sunndi swamplands in the south, westward along the shores of the Telfic Gulf and the Sea of Yar, to the Nyr Dyv and from thence northward through the Shield Lands and beyond Tenh. The write of the Overking of Imperial Aerdi eventually extended to Furyon and Voll (now Veluna), across the northern prairies as far as Perrenland. For three centuries the Aerdy held a vast empire which fluctuated in extent but little, until after the third Celestial House (dynasty) when the borders began to close in upon the original territory of the Aerdi" (Guide pp. 8-10).

The titles of the Overking are: "His Celestial Transcendency, the Overking of Aerdy, Grand Prince Ivid V of the North; Archduke of Ahlissa, Idee, and Sunndi; Suzerain of Medegia; Commander of the Bone March; Lord of the Sea Princes; Protector of Almor and Onnwal; Hetman of all the Aerdi; etc., etc." (Guide p. 23). Celestial could be a nod to China or oriental title descriptions, as well as transcendency to imply divine right or even divine.

[grodog]

I baked the Age of Great Sorrow into the prophetic structure of my current campaign, and “The Prophecy of the Six and the Twelve” is the most-recent revelation within the same Oeridian prophetic continuity/history that includes earlier prophecies speaking to the Oeridians’ vision/future/mission/purpose.

Some of this is alluded to in my unpublished OJ#37 article on “The Book of Eyes”.

Allan.

[grodog]

Jun 16, 2024 14:42:19 GMT -5 grodog said:

Some of this is alluded to in my unpublished OJ#37 article on “The Book of Eyes”.

Here’s the relevant text from the second sidebar (the first simply introduces and repeats the text of The Prophecy of the Six and the Twelves from my blog post at grodog.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-prophecy-of-the-six-and-the-twelve.html):

grodog said:

[begin sidebar 2]
Other Famous Prophecies of the Flanaess

Twins feature strongly in Oeridian history, lore, and mythology, and a series of significant prophecies by, from, or about twins (both literally and figuratively) have shaped the history of the Oeridian tribes since before the time of the Great Migrations. Some sages believe that the First Prophecy of the Twins is what triggered the Oeridians’ long march across Oerik and into the Flanaess before the Twin Cataclysms (itself the topic of the Third Prophecy of the Twins).

A short list of significant prophecies, presented in alphabetic order, largely drawn from my personal campaigns unless noted otherwise:

The Advent of Lost Astaroth
Cessations of the Eternal Clarion in the Crawling City
Diminishments of the Dwur (by Naugret the Elder)
The Doom of Fallen Stars
Fall of the House of Rax; or, the Seventh Prophecy of the Twins
Fangs for the Ebon Sun
Five Truths of Tomorrows Entwined
The Halzephonic Utterances
Imminence of the Age of Great Sorrows (by Selvor the Younger)
Incarnum Incarnatations Unleashing the Age of Unreason
March of the Black Ices and the Fimbûl Winter
The Paling (by Thalac Jiwo)
Prophecy of the Phoenix (from the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer)
Rede of the Hopping Horde and the Unmasked Scourge (a prophetic warning from Joyhdee and Daern against Wastri)
Restoration for Sulm’s Lost Lands
Return of the Prince
The Sargonne Prophecies of Bleak Future
Signs of the Herald’s Looming Darknesses (for “The Age of Worms”)
Songs and Scales for the Chromatic Queen
Sooths Unspoken, Unseen, Unsung, and Revealed
Tsunamis of the Savage Tide (for “The Savage Tide”)
The Wyrd of the White Wolf
[/end sidebar 2]

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

Hi Allan -- That is very cool stuff, thanks for sharing. I love bringing the concept of prophecies into the AD&D campaign, since they are such a big part of ancient and medieval religions and mythologies. It gives the setting more depth when you have all of these evocative names and mysterious details for the players to ponder over. I also like the idea that events like the twin cataclysms and the great migrations were prophesized or prompted by religious beliefs. I had the idea that the Oeridians had cultural values about exploration and seeking far seas and going beyond the horizon with gods like Procan, Celestian, and Fharlanghn being prominent at different times. An example would be with the Aerdi tribe being driven to press on to the east until they reached the Solnor Ocean...

"When one has lived with prophecy for so long, the moment of revelation is a shock." -- Shadout Mapes in DUNE.

I was thinking the beginning of the Age of Sorrow should be tied to some particular event, but I'm just not sure what it is. The "Turmoil Between Crowns" would be a good fit but that came later. It could be a shift from LG rulership to a more harsh and tyrannical LN or some other internal strife, assassinations, etc. It seems to coincide with the first significant moral and political weakening of the Great Kingdom on a widespread basis.

Maybe CY 213/OR 857 was the year the last good and wise Overking died, and in retrospect sages marked that as when the Age of Great Sorrow began, i.e. with a line of Overkings who were inept, self-indulgent, overly rigid, tyrannical, etc. Not necessarily evil at first, but a distinct step down from the beneficent and competent rulers up to that point.

[grodog]

Jun 17, 2024 8:05:26 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

Hi Allan -- That is very cool stuff, thanks for sharing. I love bringing the concept of prophecies into the AD&D campaign, since they are such a big part of ancient and medieval religions and mythologies. It gives the setting more depth when you have all of these evocative names and mysterious details for the players to ponder over.

Thanks!—I enjoy building out the lore of the setting, and adding to both what we know bits of already, and creating that new material to provide more interest and hooks for play.

I love divinatory magics, so being able to bring them to the fore in play has (along with foregrounding gates and planar travel) one of the main themes for recent gaming. It also helps to build more depth for the gods and their practices, clergy, and sites too.

Jun 17, 2024 8:05:26 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

I also like the idea that events like the twin cataclysms and the great migrations were prophesized or prompted by religious beliefs. I had the idea that the Oeridians had cultural values about exploration and seeking far seas and going beyond the horizon with gods like Procan, Celestian, and Fharlanghn being prominent at different times. An example would be with the Aerdi tribe being driven to press on to the east until they reached the Solnor Ocean...

I’d like to get the PCs into western Oerik at some point, to explore the birthplace of the Oeridians, in and around the lake that dwarfs even the Nyr Dyv. Perhaps it’ll involve some time travel, since two of the PCs are from the past (300s-ish CY) and the future (700s CY); we’ll see.

I do see the Oeridians’ push east as a “manifest destiny” in action, extending even further east to Lyhnn and perhaps Aquaria, over the long Solnor voyage. Various groups “settled” on “good enough” and quit along the way, justifying their settlement as “the promised land” but what if that land wasn’t even on Oerik? Fun to explore!

Jun 17, 2024 8:05:26 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

I was thinking the beginning of the Age of Sorrow should be tied to some particular event, but I'm just not sure what it is. The "Turmoil Between Crowns" would be a good fit but that came later. It could be a shift from LG rulership to a more harsh and tyrannical LN or some other internal strife, assassinations, etc. It seems to coincide with the first significant moral and political weakening of the Great Kingdom on a widespread basis.

Maybe CY 213/OR 857 was the year the last good and wise Overking died, and in retrospect sages marked that as when the Age of Great Sorrow began, i.e. with a line of Overkings who were inept, self-indulgent, overly rigid, tyrannical, etc. Not necessarily evil at first, but a distinct step down from the beneficent and competent rulers up to that point.

That’s my sense too—that the Age of Great Sorrow marks a cultural and ethical turning point for the Oeridians as a whole, not just the Great Kingdom and its vassal states. It’s bigger than the Great Kingdom. (It also begs the question of what ages preceded the Age of Great Sorrow, and what one are prophesied to follow it, and which really manifest).

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

Jun 20, 2024 9:56:23 GMT -5 grodog said:

I love divinatory magics, so being able to bring them to the fore in play has (along with foregrounding gates and planar travel) one of the main themes for recent gaming. It also helps to build more depth for the gods and their practices, clergy, and sites too.

I also like the divinations and it seems like the more intelligent players leverage them a lot. My one player Eric has a cleric who uses find traps and augury to great advantage. I also reward him and Randy the paladin player with dreams and hints when they do things exceptionally pleasing to their gods... Those are 'freebies.' I've wanted to do more with their scriptures, religious practices, and temple hierarchies, as well as prophecies or omens specific to their respective faiths. The Pelorians quote from the REVELATIONS OF PELOR and the BOOK OF THE OLD SUN. For St Cuthbert it is "Vita sancti Cuthberti" by an Anonymous Monk. For Pholtus is the PRESUMPTIVE ASSUMPTION. For Fharlanghn it is SAYINGS FROM THE HORIZON.