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Dragons
Apr 24, 2024 9:37:16 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Apr 24, 2024 9:37:16 GMT -5
How do you guys handle dragons in your campaign? Do you play them as they are described right out of the Monster Manual (1977)? Do you have their breath weapons do damage matching their maximum hit points or current hit points? One thing that I never liked was how their breath weapons tell players exactly how many hit points they have. Not knowing exactly how much more damage a monster can take is a big part of the thrill, so that's something I want to do differently. The options as I see them are: (1) play 1st edition dragons as described in the books ("By the Book"), (2) grab the 2nd edition dragons as described in the books and simply use them since they already have randomized breath weapon damage ("By the Book 2nd edition"), (3) play 1st edition dragons as described but with some alterations and tweaks such as from articles in DRAGON Magazine and/or personal ideas ("House Ruled"), (4) treat every dragon as a unique creation by the DM and using the BtB dragons merely as inspiration ("Unique Creations").
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Dragons
Apr 24, 2024 10:18:32 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Apr 24, 2024 10:18:32 GMT -5
I use 1E as the base and then augment with the stuff I like from 2E, like variable breath damage.
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Dragons
Apr 25, 2024 14:24:38 GMT -5
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Post by grodog on Apr 25, 2024 14:24:38 GMT -5
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 476
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Dragons
Apr 25, 2024 16:26:57 GMT -5
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grodog likes this
Post by foster1941 on Apr 25, 2024 16:26:57 GMT -5
#3. I expanded dragon hit dice to d12 (added “hatchling” at 1 hp/die, “mature adult” at 7 hp/die, both of which bump up the existing categories so “adult” becomes 6 hp/die and “ancient” 10 hp/die, and then two categories - venerable and great wyrm - above ancient at 11 & 12 hp/die) and use the revised claw/bite damage from Dragon #98 (which Gary endorsed a couple issues later), but don’t use the other Dragon magazine or Forgotten Realms stuff - wing-buffets and tail slaps and so on.
I don’t see dragons as Ultimate Threat monsters to threaten high-level characters. Rather I see them (and giants and vampires) as the top of the “mundane world” ecosystem: you can run into them as wilderness wandering monsters and 0-level folks will die in droves but name-level characters pretty much have a handle on them (which is how they become barons - because they’re the ones who are able to protect the mundane villagers from the dragons and giants). This is contrasted with the stuff that exists on other planes (demons and devils and titans) or deep underground (beholders and mind flayers and liches and iron golems and such) that level 10+ characters have to seek out. I’m okay with those things being more dangerous than dragons.
Put another way, I assume most mundane 0-level type folks in the world have probably seen a dragon or giant or at least know people who have, and likely have at least one relative who was killed by one. But almost none of those people have ever actually seen a demon or a beholder or whatever - at best those things are myths and legends, if they’ve even heard of them at all.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 25, 2024 18:42:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'm checking out Allan's PDF.
Trent -- I pretty much agree with everything you said. I've never seen dragons as the ultimate threat, either. I like the idea that many of them can be challenged and slain by even mid level characters. Think of the famous paintings of Saint George slaying a dragon often depicted as about the same size, or even smaller, than him... Sometimes a dragon is just a village level threat that can be slain by the local hero or knight. I also like the idea of a wider range of power and size to allow for the likes of dragons like Ancalagon the Black who can smash towers when it falls from the sky!
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Dragons
Apr 25, 2024 20:35:53 GMT -5
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Post by grodog on Apr 25, 2024 20:35:53 GMT -5
Agreed: I wanted to widen the range for dragons too, which is part of why I also changed up their alignments and intelligences in addition to their damage. I also like dragons to be smarter and more conversational (per Bilbo’s experiences), and—for the older ones—almost sage-like in their knowledge of curious lores. (I like the dragons from _The Silmarillion_ and Lucius Shepherd’s _The Scalehunter’s Beautiful Daughter_, as well as “Farmer Giles of Ham.” Two other notes: - My gem dragon revisions still aren’t in the doc yet, but in those I changed around their breath weapon types too, and raised Sariador (my naming variant for him) to be peer to Bahamut and Tiamat (at least in terms of their MM versions; my upscale Tiamat is a demon queen of primal power). - I think the dragonfear is likely too strong as-is, but haven’t been able to replaytest it of late (my PCs continue to flee from rumors of dragons rather than seeking them out ). Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 25, 2024 21:27:51 GMT -5
I usually do as is in the MONSTER MANUAL. Something about making dragon slaying accessible as possible might be my main point considering my experiences with other D&D systems going haywire.
Looking back it seems to me that the power creep on the dragons started "officially" with Mentzer because I remember my brother getting psyched over the power of the dragons in what he called the "real D&D" (BECMI 1983-1986) then when the second edition came out the scaling went berserk I recall in the local game shop they had on display a vinyl model to 25mm scale of an ancient "red dragon of Krynn" that was 2 feet long and a foot and 1/3 high. I have placed a lot of the dragon blame on 2E but I was being sloppy. It was Mentzer in 1984 with the Companion rules where he changed the average HD of each dragon from the Basic HDs into the lowest HD of "small and weak" dragons. 1984 COMPANION RULES text on dragons: Gary actually had a public opinion on this in 2007 on ENWorld: I think that my main drive in clinging to the MONSTER MANUAL stats mostly had to with the giant xp list that I have of every dragon combo.
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Dragons
Apr 25, 2024 21:29:50 GMT -5
Post by geneweigel on Apr 25, 2024 21:29:50 GMT -5
Mentzer retconned both prior Basics (1977/1981) with that HD move.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 26, 2024 6:22:50 GMT -5
Ah, thanks for the context, Gene! I had no idea about the Companion Set dragons! I started with Holmes and Moldvay D&D Basic then Cook and Marsh D&D Expert in 1981 but within a year I graduated to AD&D and never looked back. My impression was that D&D Basic was the 'training wheels' version of D&D and that once you got into it enough you naturally 'advanced' to AD&D. Over time, I realized that TSR was marketing them and supporting them as two separate games but I was already committed to AD&D and that is what all of my friends played. So, I didn't get any of the Mentzer BECMI stuff and never even read it.
My early concept of dragons came from the dragon Maleficent transformed into in the animated Disney movie SLEEPING BEAUTY (1959), Smaug in the Rankin Bass animated version of THE HOBBIT (1977) and the dragon Mal Havoc fought in the SUPERFRIENDS episode "The Lord of Middle Earth" (1979)! When I drew dragons those were the ones I based them on. It's still somewhat true to this day.
About power creep, dragons were perfectly fine opponents in OD&D but then player characters started to become more powerful with fighters getting d10 hit dice, exceptional strength bonuses, higher weapon damage, weapon specialization, etc. Average ability scores rose with the adoption of "4d6 drop the lowest" or other methods of character generation. In OD&D the base weapon damage was 1d6 so at that time the HD of and damage dealt by monsters like dragons and giants did not appear weak at all.
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Post by Scott on Apr 26, 2024 7:29:24 GMT -5
In my campaign dragons are as rare as their MM Frequency entry indicates, uncommon to rare, but with 10 different types out there, it's kind of like a great white shark being spotted in a climate friendly to great white sharks. You might not run into one every day, but if one shows up, nobpdy is surprised. There are Smaug-like uber dragons, but they are very rare. 99% of the. dragons in the world would fit the MM characteristics, but occasionally a dragon manages to not get itself killed by adventurers and grows into the chiefest and greatest of calamities a party may hve to deal with.
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