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Post by Scott on Jul 29, 2021 21:35:34 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on the limits of magic resistance? I know there is the basic resistance to spells cast at the individual, but it gets vague after that: "Note also that the magic resistance of a creature has an effect on certain existing spells such as hold portal, where it indicates the probability of the magic resistance shattering the existing spell." Could the creature walk through existing webs, or a wall of force, a wall of stone? What is the limit of those "certain existing spells"?
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 29, 2021 23:27:52 GMT -5
From POLYHEDRON #12 (JUN 1983) DISPEL CONFUSION for AD&D:
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 30, 2021 9:02:03 GMT -5
Interesting. So, by that interpretation, magic resistance can be used to actively dispel magic. I've always seen it as more passive, but in my games it hasn't come up in that many scenarios. If it can be used to dispel magic on another person or object, does that mean it would spoil potions if the person with magic resistance picked one up? Is magic resistance something that can be willingly lowered by the creature with the magic resistance?
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 30, 2021 9:25:30 GMT -5
Offhand with the 3 special familiars who convey MR as the reference (imp,quasit 1";pseudodragon contact), I 'd say it has to be capable of shutting off for "friendly" magic.
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Post by Scott on Jul 30, 2021 10:48:08 GMT -5
I definitely do not agree with the Dispel Confusion ruling, but I'm not sure where I draw the line. "Certain existing spells" is classic 1E confusion. I don't like the idea of it being an offensive dispel magic power. It seems like a contradiction that a fireball would still go off and kill everybody around the protected creature, but it would completely dispel an existing wall of force.
I think I will house rule it so that the protected creature is unaffected by magic that it comes into contact with, but otherwise the magic remains. The mind flayer could walk through the wall of force, but its wererat minions would still be stuck on the other side. And I would not give more than one chance to affect the magic.
I'll have to think about how'd I rule on "certain existing spells" like invisibility. The magic type is charm/phantasm, which implies the magic actually affects the viewer, and doesn't really make the caster invisible.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 30, 2021 17:34:09 GMT -5
There was an unofficial guide to magic resistance in DRAGON #79 that says no area touching MR but its admitted to be home brew (it does mention a MR individual being able to shut it off and be vunerable.):
Relevant text about no area effects:
The Gord novels have some MR examples:
From NIGHT ARRANT (1987):
and
The first example might be that the fireball was blocked and fizzled so the party wasn't harmed.
The second example of the illusions being seen through by MR is contradicted in the Dragon magazine article above.
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Post by Scott on Jul 30, 2021 17:44:11 GMT -5
The basic description of magic resistance in the monster Manuals contradicts the Dragon article, and also that it would dispel the whole fireball, unless maybe the fireball hit the ogre before reaching it's stated range.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 7:57:31 GMT -5
I was just browsing the Mentzer Basic series last night. Its like "rules lego". Terrible.
Anyway, when he gets to magic resistance in the "MASTER SET" (1985), he decides to reinvent it in total as "Anti-magic" and its a field that projects off the body of "Immortals" which includes demons, etc.:
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 7:58:53 GMT -5
My brother used to bring this crap to the table to argue and I used to lose my mind going through it.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 8:29:00 GMT -5
Here is all laid out for view:
MONSTER MANUAL (1977):
DEITIES AND DEMIGODS (1980):
NOTE for Gygax's GREYHAWK god upgrade to Deities and Demigods in DRAGON MAGAZINE #67 (1982) {reprinted in WOG 1983 boxed set}. Greater/lesser gods can produce an anti-magic shell 2x a day. Demigods 1x a day.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 8:43:52 GMT -5
Dwarven and hobbitish "non-magical nature" was called "magic resistance" in 3 book set from 1974.
The CHAINMAIL rules for Fantasy (1971) had no resistance except the spell "anti-magic shell" and in general spellcasting instead of a defensive "save" effect for targets to beat the spell it was an offensive "delay/negation" effect for magicians to misfire.
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Post by Scott on Jul 31, 2021 10:46:22 GMT -5
Honestly, I like Frank Mentzer and appreciate his insights and his attempts to 'dispel confusion', early D&D had a lot of it, but I take his statements the same way I would take anybody else's suggestions on the vague bits. I agree with a lot of his ideas, and think 'no way' with some of it.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 11:51:29 GMT -5
Its chaotic because he claims its Gary's decisions early on but I'm not sure what the cut off is.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 31, 2021 12:11:31 GMT -5
Also of note is that crazed and erratic TSR person (MB initials) who "straw-manned" me online over and over ("You didn't work there. Gary was evil." BS.) was Mentzer's intern.
When I had attempted to try to contact people for a convention at Lake Geneva in the early 2000s, Gary had implied that something was wrong with TSR in a major way with the employees in general as if being a good person and working at TSR was a rarity and pro-Gary people were purged it seemed. When I had asked what he was getting at he was unusually awkward and reluctant to say specifics. But when I said who are these "good" people? He started naming people. Which did not include Mentzer even though he had left TSR with Gary. Oversight?
So anything "Mentzer" has to be taken with more than grain of salt. Perhaps an enema in holy water and three remove curse spells cast from a ring of 3 wishes? If this hostile working environment is true as it seems then even in the best light Mentzer was compromised.
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Post by Scott on Jul 31, 2021 15:08:20 GMT -5
I’m confident that Gary and Frank were on very good terms. That’s based on multiple things Gary has said/done over the years. They worked together often and hung out socially. If I’m remembering correctly Frank was one of only two people Gary asked to come with him when he left TSR, the other was Zeb Cook.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 31, 2021 15:15:51 GMT -5
I've always been inclined to go with a "water off a duck's back" interpretation which is that magic resistance is passive and only protects the individual that has it. So, in the example of a wall of force or wall of ice, the creature with MR can walk through the wall and be unaffected by it if making the MR check (only gets one check, not multiples), as if the wall were not even there, but the wall is still there for anybody else; a fireball won't affect the creature but isn't dispelled and still may affect anyone else in the area of effect; potions picked up are not dispelled merely by touching their containers; polymorph self on another creature isn't dispelled by touch; the MR creature can ignore the effects of a hold portal or wizard lock without dispelling it; could walk through a web spell unhindered without dispelling the web; glyph of warding isn't set off but neither is it dispelled; detect invisibility fails to detect the MR creature but isn't dispelled; unaffected by illusions that would have affected it without the illusions being dispelled; etc. That's always been my intuition for how to handle magic resistance, since I never liked the idea that it could be used actively as a dispel magic -- that seems to go beyond mere resistance into an extra level of power.
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Post by Scott on Jul 31, 2021 17:27:22 GMT -5
That's how I've always interpreted it.
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