How old is Iuz?

[Scott]

Any ideas?
Also, how long do you think he was trapped in the Greyhawk Dungeons?
Scott

[Scott]

Another Iuz related question. Am I remembering correctly that somewhere in the Gord novels it states that Molag was at one time part of Iuz's domain, but was lost to the Horned Society while he was imprisoned?
Scott

[GT]

In answer to the first question: somewhere around a century or so as per the introduction to S4 (page 2). Given that Graz'zt and Iggwilv are Iuz's parents, and that Iggwilv bound Graz'zt using knowledge she obtained in The Lost Caverns (and subsequently lost control of), and that Iggwilv sent her forces out "nearly a century ago" and ruled fom The Caverns for "a decade". A century may not seem that "old", but the form of an aged man is simply a favored form of Iuz--his true form is the huge, maroon demonic form. Also of note: It says that Graz'zt was confined to the Abyss for a century as a result of the battle with Iggwilv--that century would now be up....
In answer to the second question; yep, Iuz did make that claim... ^__^

[Scott]

Yes, but it also states that he has ruled "for ages longer than any man can live", and "Whether Iuz is a human who has become demon-like through the centuries...".
There are some inconsistencies with his timeline, but I am working on something now that brings it all together.
Scott

[GRWelsh]

I remember some of us tried to puzzle this out on Greytalk, years ago. Here is a post of mine from back then. Maybe it will be useful to you:

Re: Furyondy and Iuz rise
Posted by [e-mail] on 06/14/1999 05:38:48 PM .

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, [iso-8859-1] Stéphane Tanguay wrote:

> Then, another option can be to make that area part of the northern
> provinces. Kalinstren in particular is quite small for my taste.

Hmmm... I wouldn't have one province straddle Whyestil Lake. You could do
it that way, but I wouldn't. I'd just say the Northern Reaches had its own
provinces/baronies/whatever, that eroded or were supplanted by Iuz.

> Hum...Cook and Sargent both assume that Iuz took control in 479 CY.

Yes. And I have always thought it was a weak assumption. The time when Iuz
"grows in might" does not have to be equivalent to when Iuz "took
control." But the later products -- WARS and WGR5 -- have now entrenched
this assumption into "canon." What was not explicit or (IMO) even
*implicit* in the original WoG set has become canon. Cook has this
chronology in WARS, with Iuz taking over the reins from a despot in 479
CY... Never made sense to me. As you point out, that is only 97 years
before the "present" (576 CY, for the Guide/Gazeteer), which hardly seems
to be "ages longer than any man can live" in a world with potions of
longevity. Also, Iuz only *ruled* prior to 505 CY, and subsequent to 570
CY (26 years before imprisonment, 6 years after, for a total of 32 years,
by 576), according to the WARS-text.

"Whether Iuz is a human who has become demon-like through the centuries,
or whether he is a semi-demon, a cambion (as some suggest a by-blow of
Orcus), no mortal knows" (Guide, p. 71). This was written from the POV of
the Savant Sage of Greyhawk in 576 CY, so we know, by that time, Iuz is
already centuries old (i.e., at least 200 years old). He is constantly
referred to as "old" -- "old Iuz of fearbabe talk" (Guide, p. 27), and
more tellingly, the following quotes from ARTIFACT OF EVIL (pp. 90-91):

"In him, the worst of demon and human had combined to form the Ancient
One, The Old, Iuz, Lord of Evil...

"... It seemed as if many great beings and powerful persons had conspired
directly against him of late -- the last century, in actual time, but to
Iuz this was lately. While there was a certain sense of pride gained from
this, a recognition of Iuz's true merit, as it were, the combination had
harmed him nonetheless.

"First his mother, Iggwilv, had turned against him, then disappeared. It
was with her help that he had gained his realm, and she had promised to
aid in its expansion..."

So, the overall impression is that Iuz has been around, and alive, for a
multiple number of centuries -- but has only come into real substantial
power (and, as a result, notoriety) in the past century or so. I would say
he was born before 460 CY... LONG before 460 CY...

[Scott]

Well, here's a timeline I've been working on that tries to put all the conflicting pieces together in a way that makes sense. It's still rough right now.
Scott

Re-writing

Iuz probably started attracting humanoids and evil men to his banner around 65 CY, but he was still little more than a petty lord at the time. Over the next few centuries he increased his own personal power, and subjugated much of what is the realm of Iuz today, and probably much of what is the Horned Society as well, since Molag was once his.

[Falconer]

Yeah, I think the cleanest solution is that Iuz was *not* conceived in Graz'zt's imprisonment under Iggwilv 100 years ago, but rather that Graz'zt's imprisonment at that time is part of an ongoing feud. Both Iggwilv and Graz'zt are very ancient powers, after all.

As for your other questions, here is the quote from Artifact of Evil (p. 91): "Iuz himself had been tricked by an unmentionable being--and imprisoned! He, Iuz! It had taken many years to manage an escape, because the one who confined him was so irrational that no normal reasoning could break the bonds, but break free he did--only to find the lick-spittle servants of Hades and Tarterus lording it over a portion of his realm. Yes, these demodand-kissing little humans and their masses of ranked fireball fodder had proclaimed the eastern half of Iuz, His Realm, as theirs.

"Being weakened from the long imprisonment, and needing to regroup his followers and gather more, Iuz had had to smile and show friendship. Yes, he loved it when the "Dreaded Hierarchs" made Molag, His Molag, summer capital of the Realm, their seat of power."

Another point of interest from the same page: "First his mother, Iggwilv, had turned against him, then disappeared. It was with her help that he had gained his realm, and she had promised to aid in its expansion." Regards.

[Falconer]

I should note, by the way, that by the end of the book he has retaken Molag and the Horned Society lands--and more. See p. 343. Regards.

[GT]

Hmmm... yes, given tha phrase about "ruling ages longer", it would indeed seem that Iuz had to have been conceived before Iggwilv got the Caverns. I think that Gary once put Iggwilv's appearance at between 500 and 1000 years in the past--I'll have to check back on some missives for that. The latter figure seemed just a tad high to me, though... Scott--you and I need to get together and compare some chronologies. I'm not really satisfied with many of the existing chronologies; especially when we can take ours to the "sources" as it were! ^__^

[Scott]

Regarding Iuz's imprisonment. The only reference I could find to duration was "many decades". I went with 7 decades, although anything after 479 CY "Might of Iuz grows" would work.
Regarding his release, I would go with the actual Robilar version over he managed to escape himself somehow.
And what of Iggwilv turning against him? Perhaps it has something to do with her discovering the Lost Caverns, or her imprisoning of Graz'zt, who was an ally of Iuz, at least I think the Gord stories implied they were allies.
Scott

[Falconer]

I'm not sure the novel means to say that Iuz effected his own escape. Even if it does vaguely seem to be saying that, this is an internal monologue in Iuz's own mind and does not necessarily reflect reality.

As far as the timeline for Iggwilv/Lost Caverns/Tsojcanth/Graz'zt Imprisonment, despite the clear "100 years ago" in S4, there has been some controversy suggesting it be pushed back to 500 years. Gygax himself has suggested 200-500 years (but his memory is sketchy on this sort of thing and he tends to make it up).

The strongest argument to making it "nearly 100 years ago", in my mind, is that I can assume that both Iggwilv and Graz'zt were defeated and banished at that time, and thus their 100-year banishment is almost over in the present (cf. WG6 Isle of the Ape, Artifact of Evil). Regards.

[GT]

Yes; I favor the 468 - 478 CY subjugation of Perrenland, culminating in the battle which banished Graz'zt and Iggwilv--and the subsequent rise of (a now-independant) Iuz the following year. It fits well with the overall scheme of things. As for the age of Iuz, 500 years seems reasonable to me--as you stated, Gary really doesn't care on that particular issue.

[Scott]

gt said:

Yes; I favor the 468 - 478 CY subjugation of Perrenland, culminating in the battle which banished Graz'zt and Iggwilv--and the subsequent rise of (a now-independant) Iuz the following year. It fits well with the overall scheme of things. As for the age of Iuz, 500 years seems reasonable to me--as you stated, Gary really doesn't care on that particular issue.

When picking the date for the start of Iggwilv's conquest of Perrenland, I estimated that the year the Tsojcanth events took place was around 575 CY. And from the intro, the 'nearly a century ago' line. My thinking was that "Might of Iuz grows." might have been due to the aid Iggwilv was providing. After discovering the Caverns, she became less and less involved with Iuz's plans, and eventually decided to start a realm of her own. The ‘betrayal’ Iuz mentions.
I don't think Iggwilv was banished for a hundred years like Graz'zt was. My view was that during the battle that Graz'zt won his freedom, Graz'zt may have actually been defeated by Iggwilv, which resulted in his confinement to his own plane for a century, but he may have dragged Iggwilv with him as he was sent back into the Abyss. Graz'zt, happy to see her lost, would say nothing of the events to Iuz, which explains the ‘disappearance’.
In 579, Iggwilv is still lost in the Abyss. My opinion is that after the T1-4, Zuggtmoy ended up fleeing, or banished to the Abyss, and it was she that actually rescued Iggwilv from the maelstrom.
Scott

[grodog]

I've been pondering the relative ages of Iuz and Drelnza for an update to my S4 web page; I'm still inclined to make Iuz younger than Drelnza, but I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the various quotations about Iuz "of fearbabe talk" and such.

I'll ponder it and dream some more, and let you know what distills into my camaign notes

[Merkholz]

I have Iuz trapped between 509 CY and 570 CY. I cannot remember exactly when the Horned Ones rose to power but I think it was sometime around 515 CY, or does it only say beginning of the century? Iuz must have been away for a few years before then at least.

I see Iggwilv as a character that has striven very hard for her powers by making pacts, choosing allies/enemies and dredging up old, hidden powers. As a result I don't see her mucking about with demon princes during her early career. Iuz is definetely old, several centuries in fact, and so his mother must also be that old at least.

I see it as this: Iggwilv is born as a mortal (not necessarily human) and soon becomes a lowly servant of a coven of witches. She survives and rises in power. She is given the dubious honor of being impregnated by Graz'zt (doesn't the cambion entry detail the fate of the mother?). She survives this event but isn't particularly fond of her son. Her rise to power, though, is hastened by the progeny.

Since that time Iggwilv used Iuz as the front for temporal power. His strength and her magic/wits guided them to more and more power. But it wasn't until 479 or so that the power was of sufficient level to be noticed in the Flanaess. Iuz had become a true force in the world, guided by his mother. But she had plans of her own - one of which included the capture of Graz'zt, a payback of sorts. She turned him into her pawn and started her own kingdom and ruled by fear for a decade. During this time Iuz no longer received the backing that he required.

When Iggwilv finally slipped and Graz'zt was set free her plans crumbled. This was a devastating blow to Iuz who mismanaged his affairs badly. He also stood no chance when the Mad Archmage came a'knockin'.

One can also draw other conclusions - Since Iggwilv in "Tsojconth" originally was a man the backstory on the Iuz family is probably not entirely consistent.

The entire region ganged up on Iggwilv when she subjugated Perrenland but no one cared about Iuz when he carved a large kingdom for himself.

The MMII entry for cambions allows for some pretty dangerous types and those with lords/princes as fathers have levels similar to Iuz' - but they are a far way away from being demi-gods. How did Iuz acquire this power?

Did Iggwilv need the powerful tomes and treasures of Tsojcanth to become the dangerous and powerful witch she is today? I think that the text in S4 points this way. This would imply that Iggwilv was less powerful before then (and therefore not a witch of several centuries but rather perhaps a very old woman at that time) and suddenly rose to true power. Gary has hinted that Iggwilv is close to being a demi-god in power - could the troves of Tsojcanth have contained some medium to achieve godhood? That would explain both Iggwilv's and Iuz' ascension.

Sorry for the long post but Iggwilv's family truly intrigues me.

M

[Scott]

Hey Merkholz, good to see you here. Don't worry about the long posts. The Iggwilv story has always been a favorite of mine as well.
Scott

[grodog]

I'll second that.

While on holiday I spent some time with a print out of my S4 web page and made substantial additions and revisions to it. Hopefully my dear wife will allot me some time to actually make those changes on the web site ;->

[Merkholz]

Scott said:

Hey Merkholz, good to see you here. Don't worry about the long posts. The Iggwilv story has always been a favorite of mine as well.
Scott

Thanks! It's good to back! I'd forgotten that I never made the jump when you restructured these boards.

Any comments on my musings?

M

[Scott]

Many of your ideas mirror my own. I do see Iggwilv as human though.
I think EGG hadn’t tied Iggwilv to Iuz yet when the tourney version of the adventure was released, but the idea ended up being one of the most interesting pieces of Greyhawk lore.
More info on Tsojcanth would be nice.
Scott

[GT]

I would say that Iggwilv certainly profited from the trove of Tsojcanth as far as power level is concerned, and as to how Iuz gained power: Worshippers.