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Post by geneweigel on Feb 9, 2005 21:02:59 GMT -5
I actually don't have anything very exciting laying around in regards to Greyhawk but I'll gladly do a request drawing. Want do you want Lolth, Zuggtmoy and Iuz superimposed in the sky over a post-modern Temple perhaps hinting a Trampier-esque element with various priests and constituents coming out of the front door with the Elder Elemental God seen subliminally in the surrounding forest?
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Falconer
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Post by Falconer on Feb 10, 2005 13:45:22 GMT -5
Gene--that sounds awesome. ;-)
As for Iggwilv, she's on the level of a Lesser Goddess, or at least a Demi-goddess.
As for replacing Zuggymoy with Lolth, that would be more work than the other way around. You'd have to replace a lot of fungi encounters and imagery with spiders. Not to mention that you'd have to modify GDQ if you wanted to run it afterwards. Regards.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 12, 2005 7:21:41 GMT -5
Want do you want Lolth, Zuggtmoy and Iuz superimposed in the sky over a post-modern Temple perhaps hinting a Trampier-esque element with various priests and constituents coming out of the front door with the Elder Elemental God seen subliminally in the surrounding forest? Uh... Yeah! You read my mind. Maybe a collage, similar to the original cover of T1.
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Post by tzelios on Feb 17, 2005 5:50:27 GMT -5
Yes, that's true, but one is still faced with the problem of having a Cleric of Lolth in charge of the Moathouse when having a Cleric of Zuggtmoy would simplify matters. (Not to mention the fact the EGG recommended it.) My approach is to take everything as they are written in the sources, and then try to find creative ways to solve inconsistencies and discontinuities. I would never change the race or gender of Lareth. I would never change his emblem.
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Post by tzelios on Feb 17, 2005 6:03:33 GMT -5
Gene--that sounds awesome. ;-) As for Iggwilv, she's on the level of a Lesser Goddess, or at least a Demi-goddess. As for replacing Zuggymoy with Lolth, that would be more work than the other way around. You'd have to replace a lot of fungi encounters and imagery with spiders. Not to mention that you'd have to modify GDQ if you wanted to run it afterwards. Regards. I totally agree with Falconer. One change causes chain reaction to subsequent modules, and you only get a useless Greyhawk collection, since it is impossible to keep on correcting all modules. Utopistic for sure. Stagnant since by doing this you cannot exploit other Greyhawk developments. I believe that one can achieve the best material and creativity economy if you change nothing. Instead just try to find the most ingenious and effective way so that everything is true. The solution devised is new material. If this process is performed as professionally as possible, the new material has the value of canonicity.
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Post by Scott on Feb 17, 2005 10:30:14 GMT -5
I think in many cases, changing the text is the better option. Usually when I change something, it's because the text is in error due to an editing mistake, and my changes only make the adventure closer to what the author(s) intended in the first place. In the long run, the stories are stronger because of the correction. Keeping everything as is has several drawbacks. First is that you often have conflicting information, and everything can't be correct. Second, most of the explainations I've read that try make a mistake work end up sounding just like what they are, obvious attempts to try to make a mistake work, and the overall story suffers because of it. Scott
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Post by Merkholz on Jan 31, 2008 10:12:13 GMT -5
The only problem I have with completely removing the Lolth elements is the reasoning behind Falrinth's behaviour. If he is as devout a Zuggtmoy-worshipper as a Lolth-worshipper it seems odd why the leaders of the temple hasn't found the Orb and released the fungal fiend. Replacing Lolth with Zuggtmoy means having to find a new deity for Falrinth and a reasoning behind his actions. Simply saying that Falrinth is mad or CE doesn't suffice IMO.
M
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 31, 2008 10:33:11 GMT -5
Wow I totally forgot that drawing that I started that I mentioned earlier in this thread. I got stuck on the temple design. It kept coming out Chinese-looking. Sorry, for the digression. Wait a fifth Chaotic Evil deity would... Oops sorry, I said that already...
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Post by Scott on Jan 31, 2008 10:54:11 GMT -5
Falrinth was most likely detailed by Frank Mentzer, who may not have been aware of the direction Gary had intended to go. Regardless, I think the Lolth reference in this instance can stand by itself, but I do feel that he is CE or mad does suffice, especially the CE part.
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GT
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Post by GT on Feb 1, 2008 4:27:40 GMT -5
Well, I left Lareth in as a human cleric of Lolth, despite the fact that after Q1 and The Temple Gary decided that Zuggtmoy would be more fitting. As for Iggwilv, who has no direct role in the T1-4 series, I treat her as a demigod, as Gary mentioned in the Gord books that she is connected to Louhi (an avatar?)--not Baba Yaga as is sometimes mentioned (who I also would not treat as higher than a demigod--read up on both of them!) The thing I changed was adding in a sub level in the Temple with a shrine to the EEG, as per Gary's original plan, and it wasn't any problem to do this...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 29, 2017 9:39:54 GMT -5
Lareth has a phylactery of action magic item, which gives him immunity to being magically held or paralyzed in any manner.
This magic item is not exactly the same as the benefits of a ring of free action - which magic item conveys immunity to slow spells and gives abilty to move freely within webs, underwater, etc.
Do you DM the phylactery of action solely per the stated magic benefits in the T1 module, or do you confer all the benefits for this magic item to match the benefits for a ring of free action?
Does this magic item have the same or different experience and gold piece values to a ring of free action?
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 29, 2017 11:02:59 GMT -5
Its crazy that I could never complete the drawing. I just did the floating heads. Its the temple description that threw me off. I had made various models of the layout to get it right over the years but I never put much more energy into it besides that because if I put input into it then its a deviation. I stopped as far as I could go. I don't want people saying my version is official so I kept the skeleton of the spatial facts for my own reference.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 29, 2017 13:52:41 GMT -5
I take it that Lareth with his minions are responsible for using the torture room, and thereafter Lareth determines whether to dispense of victims to Lubash's pantry, or else fodder for the ghouls?
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 29, 2017 14:28:11 GMT -5
Yeah, interchanging magic item qualities on diffeent objects is part of the rules:
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 30, 2017 15:48:11 GMT -5
Have you always kept the torture room generic, or have you specified some devices and implements in this room like an iron maiden, rack, torture chair, etc.?
Have you had PCs or NPCs captured before and had Lareth bring them here to extract information?
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GT
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Post by GT on Dec 31, 2017 16:25:53 GMT -5
I always filled in details 'cause, hey, it's fun! But, no... none of my PC's were captured; they powered through the majority of bad guys. Of course, that IS an option I reckon... ^__^
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 9, 2018 8:17:45 GMT -5
What do you make of his given name, Lareth, and that his name is contained within the name of the leader of the elven pantheon, Corellon Larethian? Would EGG have had specifics in mind why he used this name as the 'dark hope of chaotic evil' Lolth devotee villain in VOH? Is it possible that Lareth was a given name directly by Lolth as a mockery of and challenge to Corellon Larethian, possibly in that Lareth is a human cleric, implying that Corellon Larethian is not fully a 'true elf', unlike Lolth's Drow, who are the fully 'true elves?'
I just cannot see making Lareth change his worship of Lolth out for Zuggtmoy or any other deity - I have always viewed him as an ideal Lolth worshipper.
I am very interested to look into more details all of you have on significant alterations to the TOEE, and most especially, alterations that make direct use of both Lolth and the EEG. I would rather use those deities fully within the TOEE, even if it means that Zuggtmoy is completely out {most likely, due to EGG substituted Zuggtmoy for Lolth in his reworked manuscript}, and even if Iuz is also completely out - what degree of confidence do you all have that Iuz was in the original EGG manuscript before Gary reworked it? Even if Gary originally had Iuz playing a role, how do you remove any and all Iuz Mentzerisms from the TOEE and get as close to possible a Gygaxian use of Iuz in the TOEE?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2018 13:16:28 GMT -5
The race god concept in Gygax implementation isn't universal as it was portrayed over years of use by the "corporation" and players.
The drow and kuo-toa are the ideal examples of a racial god in working play (Lolth & Blib).
From DRAGON #64 (AUG 1982)"GREYHAWK’S WORLD NEWS, NOTES AND VIEWS OF THE GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN"
The way this GH statement is written is that these DEI&DEM gods can be used as a placeholder for now and it doesn't convey that this was part of some unknown set up. So I look at "Corellon Larethian" as forgettable. Kuntz had nothing to do with it. It seemed like these were just nameless placeholders with some associations thrown on by Gary but ironed out by Jim Ward with names, background and devices. I questioned the two of them and that is the gist of what I was getting out of the development.
As a personal aside, I was never a fan of the lady-boy concept of "Corellon" so I found more elfin substitute for my campaign. Its not that I'm "anti-gay" (far from it) but you have to make things mythical and legendary in D&D. Nature boys are usually large phallused traditionally and that doesn't compute that the ultimate elf is a "Hermaphroditus" who was very urban and sophisticated in concept (crossdressers seem more likely in a capitol rather than some small town, etc.). I think the elves being "queer" is most likely an opinion by someone (Ward) familiar with sci-fi and forced to work Kuntz's piles of deity research. As in person Kuntz seemed riddled with god information and Ward seemed like it was a job that he did as an editor and not much of a legend master.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 9, 2018 15:28:31 GMT -5
The race god concept in Gygax implementation isn't universal as it was portrayed over years of use by the "corporation" and players. The drow and kuo-toa are the ideal examples of a racial god in working play (Lolth & Blib). From DRAGON #64 (AUG 1982)"GREYHAWK’S WORLD NEWS, NOTES AND VIEWS OF THE GREYHAWK CAMPAIGN" The way this GH statement is written is that these DEI&DEM gods can be used as a placeholder for now and it doesn't convey that this was part of some unknown set up. So I look at "Corellon Larethian" as forgettable. Kuntz had nothing to do with it. It seemed like these were just nameless placeholders with some associations thrown on by Gary but ironed out by Jim Ward with names, background and devices. I questioned the two of them and that is the gist of what I was getting out of the development. As a personal aside, I was never a fan of the lady-boy concept of "Corellon" so I found more elfin substitute for my campaign. Its not that I'm "anti-gay" (far from it) but you have to make things mythical and legendary in D&D. Nature boys are usually large phallused traditionally and that doesn't compute that the ultimate elf is a "Hermaphroditus" who was very urban and sophisticated in concept ( crossdressers seem more likely in a capitol rather than some small town, etc.). I think the elves being "queer" is most likely an opinion by someone (Ward) familiar with sci-fi and forced to work Kuntz's piles of deity research. As in person Kuntz seemed riddled with god information and Ward seemed like it was a job that he did as an editor and not much of a legend master. Gene, and all, to what extent have you used the various Demi-human and humanoid non-human deities in your Greyhawk campaigns, either the ones in Deities and Demi-Gods or in UA? I don't have familiarity with the ones in UA, but have let the PCs use or not as they choose. For your campaigns, did you create your own deities for Demi-humans and humanoids, and if so, what are your creations? Or do you have Demi-humans and humanoids follow the standard Greyhawk deities used by humans?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 9, 2018 16:23:42 GMT -5
Gene, and all, to what extent have you used the various Demi-human and humanoid non-human deities in your Greyhawk campaigns, either the ones in Deities and Demi-Gods or in UA? I don't have familiarity with the ones in UA, but have let the PCs use or not as they choose. By the early I had codified every god in creation with at least where their temple was located in "Greyhawk city" (which was my own concoction). Fantasy or "real". For your campaigns, did you create your own deities for Demi-humans and humanoids, and if so, what are your creations? Or do you have Demi-humans and humanoids follow the standard Greyhawk deities used by humans? In the beginning as a DM, I had a penchant to make up gods as I went. So I have massive catalogs of gods and demons. I have around three designed gods on my blog. 2 are old standbys from the campaign but I have pantheons of different cultures but they're huge.
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