|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 13, 2018 13:13:32 GMT -5
I was just going through my old e-mails with Gary and its like every other thing I'm saying "con that doesn't suck" over and over again and he's feeding my demon with his replies. If you like Rob or not we can all agree that he is no Gary. Then who else is there? Everyone is a fill in. If someone could just address why D&D went bad instead of just ignoring it over and over like it never happened that would be the peak element that would outdo everything else. The Lake Geneva con dream era might be completely over for me unless something like this is set to happen. Just tearing through the memories as many highlights there were talking with Gary there were a lot of low moments. Too many. In 2002, getting no "work" or even a good dialogue going. It was almost a parallel to superficial dinner dating type interaction (without the intercourse, of course! ) and nothing was set into place. Which for me just rinsed and repeated again in 2007 at LGGC. In 2007 at LGGC, me flipping on the wedding people loudly mocking D&D at the hotel. Lets put a frame around that. That was fucking crazy. Everybody is looking at me like "Oh shit, I was hoping all that internet steam he has was allegorical!" Plus, the weird sexual undercurrent that seemed like the whole con was a "beard" for. At first, I thought I was being too judgemental but then it just kept turning into a David Lynch movie. I was a heartbeat away from bringing my other "friend" and this would have been a bad combination. Then I think it would have been a David Cronenberg film. What is left there to do in Lake Geneva? Go to the coffee shop that Gary suggested that I didn't get a chance to check out? I still have my Wisconsin mug from the gas station in Lake Geneva. Its cracked though. I think I might do a "non-con" to Lake Geneva and film me bashing crappy D&D while going over the highlights of real D&D.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Feb 13, 2018 21:23:04 GMT -5
I'm so mad at myself for never making a GEN CON or even a LGGC. I kept saying, "next year." Or I was busy with work, so it never seemed like a good time. But everyone is always busy with work! And then EGG died and I pretty much lost interest. From what I've heard, the GARY CON is the closest thing to what I'd enjoy, but it has a big problem -- no Gary! GARY CON X is coming up already! Holy crap!
I've never been much of a Con person, but I would have loved to have played D&D with EGG and just hung out with him for a while to listen to old stories. But as far as other Con events... They tend to be disappointing. Playing games with strangers is better than nothing, I suppose, but it tends to lack what I like most about gaming which is really getting together with friends to do something creative, challenging, intellectually stimulating, and to have a few laughs.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 13, 2018 22:37:55 GMT -5
I'd still like to make some cons. It's just scheduling. With the kids and Liana's schedule it's hard to fit it in. But I'll keep trying.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 13, 2018 23:58:27 GMT -5
Gary Con seemed ideal but the whole Winter thing is a turn off and the fact that its trying to be Gen Con is the same. In general, it seems like actually gaming is also a time waster that I did not want to admit. Frankly, I'd rather discuss game play/content and leave the entry level/super glib gamers thrusting themselves at luminaries to it because that Kuntz game only got good once the lightweights bailed(not you GT). Perhaps presentations like at a technical conference. I would love to do that. Once I finish this adventure maybe... At 430pm in the Green Room: "TAKING THE DICE OUT OF YOUR ASS" Presenter Gene Weigel I had an idea for a tournament but looking back my development notes are a high charged layout but I went off the deep end.
|
|
foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 476
|
Post by foster1941 on Feb 14, 2018 16:21:23 GMT -5
The dirty secret about cons is that playing rpgs with strangers generally isn't all that much fun, and almost always less fun than playing with your friends, at home, for free. They're fun for shopping, and for picking up industry gossip (all the stuff people won't put into writing), and for "special occasion" games like large-scale minis battles I'd never have the resources to pull off at home. But really the biggest appeal is just having an excuse to hang out with friends who don't live near enough to see on a regular basis. Of course you don't actually NEED a con for the latter, but it serves as a focal point to help organize around (as well as having other fun stuff to do). AFAICT the friends of mine who go to GaryCon every year barely even participate in the "official" con events - they organize mostly off-schedule games among themselves, which unless you're selling something and are trying to drum up an audience seems like the way to go.
My friend Tony (wheggi) moved to the Milwaukee area a couple-three years ago for his wife's job. My wife and I hope to visit them there someday and if we do I'll probably want to take a day-trip down to Lake Geneva to see the famous landmarks, but if that happens it's definitely going to be in the summertime, not coinciding with GaryCon, and definitely not shelling out significant amounts of cash for the honor of being in near proximity to Margaret Weis or whoever.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 14, 2018 17:41:18 GMT -5
Yeah, that’s true. I have very little interest in gaming at gaming cons.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 14, 2018 19:39:24 GMT -5
Ideally, I think would like rule discussions and perhaps subjects of relatable superfluous observations in some kind of roundtable with some kind of format so everyone gets a turn to put a limit on aggressive or boring people.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 15, 2018 8:37:53 GMT -5
And the big quilt factor of automatic acceptance of the names like the aforementioned Dragonlance person or other makers of the "forgotten-able". There are a certain type of people that were employed by TSR that are just not on the wavelength and will never be. I feel like I'm on trial for not accepting Roger E. Moore at face value because EGG saluted his efforts here and there. I don't even want to deal with any D&D culture like that. Its a waste of energy to celebrate what was filler for a company that we all know was way too stretched in the wrong direction in the early 80s if it wasnt we would have never heard of Lorraine Williams.
All those names during that time are sketchy. I got so sick of Gary popping out that some people weren't that great back then that I wanted a list of who not to invite to a con. I wish that I had gotten the whole deal. But I have enough of who to avoid but some he was sketchy about. He described the culture at TSR as nicely as he could. Bluntly, as I will put it, he described a rising drive for effeminate ideas. Certain people who were once battlin' knights became frilled minstrels and they did it to survive in the corporate safe zone mentality.
The only AD&D people that were distinctly cleared of that behavior by Gary were Allen Hammack, Harold Johnson, Steve Marsh and Dave Trampier. I have knowledge of colorful incidents but I'm just an outsider fan who was told stories because I was trustworthy fanatic at the end of the day who just wanted good game material and could care less over how someone made a career on this stuff and I can't condemn dead people like Sutherland. I rather enjoy Sutherland. And the living sketchy like Otus. Gary may not have liked him but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate his work.
This is why wasting time with "names" is not good for anything. Especially the Gygax family if they're just going to blandly be inclusive of Realms and Lance material as if we the fans never suffered through this. I had the whole line of DRAGONLANCE including minis and calendars. I remember games with people talking about the anticipation of the big D&D reveal that never came for the Dragonlance line. To glibly annihilate the D&D culture is what we dealt with and its ongoing. To have a nostalgia fest to remember being annihilated like our current relationship with current "D&D" is the thing to avoid.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 15, 2018 10:07:33 GMT -5
With Hammack and Johnson, that would include modules I enjoyed DM'ing the next most, after EGG's. I never picked up I9, since I was not DM'ing then, but I probably should get it now.
The only other module authors I consistently cared for were Moldvay and to a lesser extent, Schick.
Lakofka - I liked L1 enough to buy L2, which I did not care for.
Mentzer - I never got R1 through R4. TOEE needs to be reworked! Q1 = awful! Need to craft D4 through infinity series...
Browne & Turnbull - I have the U series. I hated U2. U1 & U3 I somewhat liked.
Hickman - I liked I3 through I5 enough to buy Ravenloft, which I did not like. Then I tried the first dragon lance, but didn't like that either = done.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 15, 2018 10:36:35 GMT -5
And what would WG7 = Shadowlands have been if EGG had done it?
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Feb 15, 2018 10:39:25 GMT -5
I can think of one reason I'd like to go to a convention. I admire the miniatures terrain of DWARVEN FORGE and HIRST ARTS. I wouldn't mind talking to Stefan and Bruce. Using their terrain might be ideal for a tournament scenario, since they are usually about scenes and set pieces and limited in scope, and the 3D visual aspect is instantly immersive. Like playing out the storming of a castle making use of the old CHAINMAIL rules, or even just AD&D rules, could be a lot of fun!
A friend of mine once ran an original scenario like this, titled: "The Siege of Kar-Tan." We were helping the defenders of a fortress, Kar-Tan, against an invasion of orcs including some riding giant lizards. It was a castle made out of foam core. Some of the players in our group didn't like it ("What's this? I wanted to play regular D&D"), but I really enjoyed it. I felt like I got to see the rationale behind having certain spells in the game, with tactical, troop vs. troop, tabletop play. I cast phantasmal force to make our front gate appear as solid stone, and made a fake gate appear where the wall was thickest! A giant lizard battered his head against the wall, senselessly. I cast a hallucinatory terrain on a field to one side of the castle to make it appear like a large crevasse, and so avoided by the invaders! I sealed wall breaches with webs and other wall spells. I caste haste on a our heavy cavalry, to charge down invaders who made it into the inner bailey! One of the surprises? The giant lizards could climb right up the side of the walls! It was really a lot of fun. It would be perfect as a one-shot, tournament scenario.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 15, 2018 11:10:50 GMT -5
With Hammack and Johnson, that would include modules I enjoyed DM'ing the next most, after EGG's. I never picked up I9, since I was not DM'ing then, but I probably should get it now. I talked to him about that recently (last year?) it seems like it was finished by others. Didn't I talk about this already here? I think I scared the crap out of him trying to not go through FACEBOOK at that time. Moldvay was labeled "alright" but it was not as firm and I kind of saw it with the "white ape". Schick he said was "alright in the beginning". I think he came in under the radar as an old friend to Gary so he put out voluminous content justifyngn his existence but in my opinion, he was always fighting for incongruency with what was there. He's a hard case. On one hand he did Polyhedron as a force for promoting authentic Gary rulings over Dragon but I can never forget the I11 NEEDLE. It was such a letdown. Plus my brother was always trying "Mentzer-ize" AD&D sessions with Companion/Master content. I tried these and they seem well put together put they just needed a little more energy or something. The WHITE DWARF magazines are alright with Turnbull only being slightly incongruwent. Gary talked well of Turnbull but I don't think he was part of the system. I liked I3 PHARAOH but the sequels dried me up. I had bought into the RAVENLOFT merchandise just like everything and anything D&D and I had two shelves worth of it. I still have a two miniatures sets. But Hickman is probably a clear case of the behavior that Gary was describing. Cook I can't stand and Gary knew I hated all his shit. I blamed Cook for shitty 2nd Edition and I shouldn't have all those years but his were the words I was reading that glopped over and fudged the whole system year after year. Someone stole my DMG and PHB in 1989 so it was like oh its the same thing and did not replace them for a year around. BOY, WAS I WRONG!
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 15, 2018 11:21:28 GMT -5
And what would WG7 = Shadowlands have been if EGG had done it? The only "shade" of that is that its featured in the 1987 GORD THE ROGUE: CITY OF HAWKS novel: Its like a quarter of the novel at least if I recall correctly.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 15, 2018 11:31:45 GMT -5
I can think of one reason I'd like to go to a convention. I admire the miniatures terrain of DWARVEN FORGE and HIRST ARTS. I wouldn't mind talking to Stefan and Bruce. Using their terrain might be ideal for a tournament scenario, since they are usually about scenes and set pieces and limited in scope, and the 3D visual aspect is instantly immersive. Like playing out the storming of a castle making use of the old CHAINMAIL rules, or even just AD&D rules, could be a lot of fun! I saw that DF guy at that Gygax magazine event and he seemed alright at first but I don't know. Kinda standoff-ish was the feeling that I was getting. He was standing next to this guy who was leering at me the whole time so I don't know what was going on there. I left there feeling like this was a complete waste of time. The only person who spoke to me was this very pretty lady and I believe she was the owner of the magazine. I liked her she was nice. It was all sketchy though. Luke and Ernie on video feeds. Luke looked like he was toking but it could have vapes. Then theway the magazine just turned into neo-DRAGON 2.0 was like eh.. Its all a blur. DWARVEN FORGE what? I try to make open war spontaneous thats probably why I'm not playing!
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Feb 15, 2018 14:28:51 GMT -5
It was all sketchy though. Luke and Ernie on video feeds. Luke looked like he was toking but it could have vapes. Then theway the magazine just turned into neo-DRAGON 2.0 was like eh.. Yeah, I thought it was sketchy from the beginning. The idea of naming the magazine was flawed to begin with. I'm sure it seemed like a great idea, at first; after all, an homage is a good place to start and announces the style of gaming you're going for. But how is a late-80's era DRAGON Magazine clone an appropriate homage to EGG? It's not. It would have been more appropriate to model the style and content of THE DRAGON as it was in the late 70's/early 80's... Or perhaps even better, do an original style with content based on things EGG was interested in... Heraldry! History! Pole arms! Jack Vance! A. Merritt! Fritz Leiber! Diplomacy! Barsoom! Conan! Lost Worlds! The Planes of Existence! Also, with each issue have quotes by EGG included, and tie it directly back to EGG in some way. A list of Gygaxian words!
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 15, 2018 14:55:33 GMT -5
It was all sketchy though. Luke and Ernie on video feeds. Luke looked like he was toking but it could have vapes. Then theway the magazine just turned into neo-DRAGON 2.0 was like eh.. Yeah, I thought it was sketchy from the beginning. The idea of naming the magazine was flawed to begin with. I'm sure it seemed like a great idea, at first; after all, an homage is a good place to start and announces the style of gaming you're going for. But how is a late-80's era DRAGON Magazine clone an appropriate homage to EGG? It's not. It would have been more appropriate to model the style and content of THE DRAGON as it was in the late 70's/early 80's... Or perhaps even better, do an original style with content based on things EGG was interested in... Heraldry! History! Pole arms! Jack Vance! A. Merritt! Fritz Leiber! Diplomacy! Barsoom! Conan! Lost Worlds! The Planes of Existence! Also, with each issue have quotes by EGG included, and tie it directly back to EGG in some way. A list of Gygaxian words! That actually sounds worth buying!
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Feb 15, 2018 18:47:46 GMT -5
The dirty secret about cons is that playing rpgs with strangers generally isn't all that much fun, and almost always less fun than playing with your friends, at home, for free. They're fun for shopping, and for picking up industry gossip (all the stuff people won't put into writing), and for "special occasion" games like large-scale minis battles I'd never have the resources to pull off at home. Agreed on all counts, although I don't get to hear much in the way of industry gossip at NTX or GaryCon really---perhaps because few of the old guard are still actively doing much: the new Top Secret was announced at GaryCon last year (and Merle's been running it at both shows the past few years), and Goodman always does a seminar with announcements about big, upcoming projects (the B1-2, JG, and MA reprints, for example). But otherwise there's not much in the way of breaking news/gossip; or, perhaps I'm simply out of the loop on these things (which is entirely possible) But really the biggest appeal is just having an excuse to hang out with friends who don't live near enough to see on a regular basis. Of course you don't actually NEED a con for the latter, but it serves as a focal point to help organize around (as well as having other fun stuff to do). AFAICT the friends of mine who go to GaryCon every year barely even participate in the "official" con events - they organize mostly off-schedule games among themselves, which unless you're selling something and are trying to drum up an audience seems like the way to go. Yes, off-grid gaming has been the mainstay of my gaming fun at conventions for the most of the past several years. I look forward to gaming with those guys I know and only see at conventions each year, and also make extra room for them in my on-grid games by having extra seats available for folks who I want to game with, too. My friend Tony (wheggi) moved to the Milwaukee area a couple-three years ago for his wife's job. My wife and I hope to visit them there someday and if we do I'll probably want to take a day-trip down to Lake Geneva to see the famous landmarks, but if that happens it's definitely going to be in the summertime, not coinciding with GaryCon, and definitely not shelling out significant amounts of cash for the honor of being in near proximity to Margaret Weis or whoever. I'm sure you'd have a great time with a summertime tour, Trent. I've only been to Lake Geneva in March, and while it's not generally as cold now as it was 10 years ago (global warming at work!), it still often snows most years, particularly when the con is in the first two weeks of the month (as it will be again this year). Allan.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 16, 2018 12:47:28 GMT -5
With Hammack and Johnson, that would include modules I enjoyed DM'ing the next most, after EGG's. I never picked up I9, since I was not DM'ing then, but I probably should get it now. I talked to him about that recently (last year?) it seems like it was finished by others. Didn't I talk about this already here? I think I scared the crap out of him trying to not go through FACEBOOK at that time. Moldvay was labeled "alright" but it was not as firm and I kind of saw it with the "white ape". Schick he said was "alright in the beginning". I think he came in under the radar as an old friend to Gary so he put out voluminous content justifyngn his existence but in my opinion, he was always fighting for incongruency with what was there. He's a hard case. On one hand he did Polyhedron as a force for promoting authentic Gary rulings over Dragon but I can never forget the I11 NEEDLE. It was such a letdown. Plus my brother was always trying "Mentzer-ize" AD&D sessions with Companion/Master content. I tried these and they seem well put together put they just needed a little more energy or something. The WHITE DWARF magazines are alright with Turnbull only being slightly incongruwent. Gary talked well of Turnbull but I don't think he was part of the system. I liked I3 PHARAOH but the sequels dried me up. I had bought into the RAVENLOFT merchandise just like everything and anything D&D and I had two shelves worth of it. I still have a two miniatures sets. But Hickman is probably a clear case of the behavior that Gary was describing. Cook I can't stand and Gary knew I hated all his shit. I blamed Cook for shitty 2nd Edition and I shouldn't have all those years but his were the words I was reading that glopped over and fudged the whole system year after year. Someone stole my DMG and PHB in 1989 so it was like oh its the same thing and did not replace them for a year around. BOY, WAS I WRONG! Maybe I would have liked the U series better without U2's begging lizard men for forgiveness scenario, just making them into a fierce initial threat, and then adding Tomb of the Lizard King as a U4 after U3? I don't even remember the content of I2 any longer, if I liked it or not? Some of the stuff in U1 seemed pretty weak, like the hidden secrets of the philosopher's stone alchemist's area or whatever that part was, but that could be easily improved.
|
|