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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2013 22:24:03 GMT -5
I was contemplating the roper the other day and so I went down to the dungeon to throw something together to simulate. A 1983 TSR roper action figure with string for range to scaled fantasy figures (STAR WARS sized) its a knight on the left and a see through "invisible Gandalf" on the right: This inspired me to Dremel something. It took me 3 1/2 hours to concoct then carve and construct a roper with max sized 50 foot "rope-like secretions" and 9 feet tall with 3 foot diameter with a cleric to its immediate left and a paladin on the left forefront: I'll paint this tomorrow maybe but I can't promise anything!
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2013 22:25:21 GMT -5
The paper has the 25 mm figs on the min and max ranges if you can see it.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 15, 2013 16:28:48 GMT -5
That's a good idea, Gene, and that miniature is actually useful with string ropes.
Does the roper have one eye, or two eyes?
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2013 16:51:57 GMT -5
That's a good idea, Gene, and that miniature is actually useful with string ropes. Does the roper have one eye, or two eyes? I was thinking about the two eyes but they I changed my mind. I'm putting on the paint right now for a corrupt yellow grey. Its coming out green so I'll have to highlight it:
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2013 18:26:43 GMT -5
And here is the final result in regular lighting. Here it is with the flash:
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 15, 2013 18:41:59 GMT -5
"Say, why is that cigar-shaped stalagmite a greenish-gray color -- What -- yeowwwww!!!"
I like it! You should do more stuff like this, since you definitely have the knack for it.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2013 21:30:01 GMT -5
You should do more stuff like this, since you definitely have the knack for it. I'd like to but which ones really need some kind of clarification. The Steve Marsh sea creatures I was never too fond of and the blobs seem to be too easy. I never finished the modified Demogorgon that I started (snipped off his shark fins). Juiblex is a likely contestant but when am I going to use that? Never? Maybe a purple worm. Its big and its never been really done exactly right..
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 16, 2013 22:17:14 GMT -5
I've put a lot of thought into the purple worm. It seems like to 25mm scale its roughly half a paper towel roll to an inch shy in adult range but both with the same diameter as the roll. This doesn't fit the imagery we've seen as far as the stinger. Another factor to conisider is the proportions of the mouth. Does it seem like its a vertical mouth opening?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 18, 2013 8:35:44 GMT -5
I'd like to but which ones really need some kind of clarification. The Steve Marsh sea creatures I was never too fond of and the blobs seem to be too easy. I never finished the modified Demogorgon that I started (snipped off his shark fins). Juiblex is a likely contestant but when am I going to use that? Never? Maybe a purple worm. Its big and its never been really done exactly right.. What did you think of the Otherworld purple worm? It has a round mouth ringed with teeth. I think an actual earthworm has a very small, scoop-like mouth? You have a point about making the monsters you would never use... They would be great to look at, but ultimately it is better to make things you might actually use. I'd like to see you try your hand at a few of the standard monsters, like trolls, ogres, giants, lizards, snakes, etc. How about modeling a monster of your own creation? Like that giant cyclops race you once described from one of your games. You seem to have a talent for the Cthulhu/Cthonian genre, as a sculptor from the "Clark Ashton Smith" school.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 18, 2013 9:59:55 GMT -5
What did you think of the Otherworld purple worm? It has a round mouth ringed with teeth. I think an actual earthworm has a very small, scoop-like mouth? I don't know. A lot of that stuff has a push in the right direction but is ultimately superficial (e.g. they're hammy orcs). It seems its straight in the comfort zone of the sculptor to me. The purple worm was impressive after a long glance and leaving it at that but after reading the descriptors compared to DAS art it might be another one of those Blumes override Gary situations in regards to the art. We all know this beastie was created as a mistake. CHAINMAIL players using the description on page 35 under "DRAGONS": Finally, the Purple, or Mottled, Dragon is a rare, fightless worm with a venomous sting in its tail. Then it just stuck. So whatever the wide CHAINMAIL fever was generating didn't look like a dragon anymore, blah, blah, blah, end of story for the "Lambton Worm" in D&D, etc. So with that in mind is the depiction by Bell (Wooden D&D), Sutherland (MM cover, interior & elsewhere) and DSL (DMG pg. 166) inaccurate to the description in the MONSTER MANUAL? All show the creature with a mouth that isn't fitting the proportions of the descriptions (10 feet in D&D and 8 feet tall and 6 foot wide in AD&D). So which is the better? Some worms used for fishing have that extruded attack from the folds of a loose cone shaped nose so that would fit the Bell and somewhat the DSL version. The Sutherland version is reminiscent of a DUNE spice worm but I'm sure thats what garnered the mistaken identity in the first place and cinched a degree of the game's popularity as well. You have a point about making the monsters you would never use... They would be great to look at, but ultimately it is better to make things you might actually use. Star-spawn of Cthulhu has been sitting on the shelf for almost thirty years. I'd like to see you try your hand at a few of the standard monsters, like trolls, ogres, giants, lizards, snakes, etc. But then there is the minefield of should it be Tolkien-ized in regards to Ogres/Trolls! But that is a good idea to reconsider standards. How about modeling a monster of your own creation? Like that giant cyclops race you once described from one of your games. I think I didn't use a miniature because it was so large. Cthulhu-sized (100 feet?) if I recall correctly. You seem to have a talent for the Cthulu/Cthonian genre, as a sculptor from the "Clark Ashton Smith" school. I'm just getting started with that Dremel thing. Thats weird because I once sculpted a Mammon idol out of soapstone for a high school art class and it looked similar Smith's Tsathogghua statue that I was unaware of!
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 18, 2013 11:53:56 GMT -5
I've gone back and forth on the pig-faced orcs. I am glad Otherworld miniatures has made them available, and has had such a focus on miniatures based on the classic illustrations. But I think the pig-faced orcs were ultimately a mistake that was made circa 1977 and became entrenched as the AD&D orc forever. The D&D cartoon of the early 1980's really cemented this image of the green orc with the pink pig snout. And that was why, when we all saw Return of the Jedi we pointed to the Gammorean Guards and yelled: "Look! Orcs are in Star Wars!" Prior to that, it seems there was some variation of how orcs were portrayed, even among TSR artists. Like if you look at the A modules, the orcs have upturned snouts but they are much shorter, and the orcs certainly don't have pig-heads! And the same applies to the Holloway illustrations in the Dragon article on orcs.
I think my view of orcs and goblins will forever be influenced by the Rankin Bass animated movies for the Hobbit and Return of the King, and when I draw those humanoids elements from those designs usually are included, but on a less cartoony level and without the horns.
I never cared for the bright green orcs and goblins of Games Workshop/Warhammer. Too green! Too bright! What are they supposed to be, radioactive?
Going too far in the animal direction doesn't work, either. Like the way a lot of gnolls are drawn nowadays with their dog-like feet and paws. Superficially it looks good, but they wouldn't be able to walk upright on those feet for long and would have difficulty holding weapons, so it just doesn't make sense. So, in the final analysis, the humanoids can have some bestial features, but have to physiologically remain mostly human-like to fit their role as enemy troops.
I'm thinking the Reaper miniatures and Thunderbolt Mountain miniatures are the closest to orcs and goblins as I envision them.
But I'm always interested in seeing new interpretations of the old standards.
I'm not sure what Tolkien himself envisioned -- something midway between a chimpanzee and a human, with Mongoloid features and swarthy or dark skin? Australopithicus? Homo Erectus? Tolkien orcs can cross breed with men, so we have to keep that in mind. They're recognizably not human yet close enough to mate with humans. And EGG had the losels, the tree-swinging orc/baboon cross-breeds. So, does that imply a more ape-like conception.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 18, 2013 13:24:43 GMT -5
Its hard. I think my ideal orc is still in the style of this Spanish PC game that I played in 2001 called BLADE OF DARKNESS (it later had another name "SEVERANCE" but the one that I bought was called that) about 45 seconds in you'll see one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=33R-O7cp-rkIn another part they have bows and its really orcish seeming. Towards the end there are slightly human humanoids with dark skin which seem half-orcish.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 18, 2013 15:00:51 GMT -5
Maybe you could do a Cthonian series of monsters: "Monstrosities of the earth." Something that would let you practice with the dremel and could be intentionally misshapen. Ropers, gibbering mouthers, tentacled things and completely alien looking horrors.
A friend of mine in Pittsburgh, Eric, is artistic also and has bought some mold material -- Instamold -- it is like flexible plastic that you heat up and then it sets around your original sculpture. I think he would like to start casting original stuff too. One of his ideas is to cast dead bodies. You don't often see that in miniature dioramas.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 18, 2013 15:54:34 GMT -5
Yeah, the idea of doing a detailed adventurer carved out of wood sounds like a nightmare. A better medium maybe softer wood and some technique to keep it steady for flat areas.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 18, 2013 16:07:46 GMT -5
Here is the original roper mini from the 1980 Grenadier gold box series in comparison with the one that I just did:
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 19, 2013 9:21:13 GMT -5
Its a good visual but it doesn't have the dimensions that are described with the yard diameter matched with a nine foot cigar shape.
I'm having the darndest time visualizing a proportional purple worm. Its like how far do you have to go before its not even remotely similar to the imagined combats from the supplied imagery? I think the roper was a little easier in that regard.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 19, 2013 9:37:53 GMT -5
The type of worm that I think is the basis for the odd sized mouth description (vertical) that is in the MONSTER MANUAL is the called polychaetes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolychaetaHeres a visual image of how its mouth changes from a blunt snout to a massive biting maw (some also have weird mandibles): www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEKwgGXRzQsWait til they show the close up and you can see the mandibles as it extrudes. You can't really see in this one but I've seen fisherman use them and the mouth is vertical. This might be the inspiration.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 19, 2013 9:40:19 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 19, 2013 9:46:30 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 14, 2013 1:59:51 GMT -5
I read these DIPLOMACY zines a while back but I completely forgot that it mentioned the Purple Worm by Gygax: THANGORODRIM!! Vol I, No. 9 – Aug 14 1970
GRAYTE WOURMES – PART V: THE MOTTLED DRAGON
“Of doubtful species, the Mottled or Purple Worm must be included in any study despite the possibility that it is not a true dragon. The creature has no wings and no internal form of weapon unlike other dragons. Yet its body shape conforms otherwise to the kind as does its general behaviour. The Purple Dragon has a venomous sting in the tip of its tail, one drop of which is enough to fell an Oliphant. It is sly and treacherous. The species is found only on the Islands Umbar."
By Gore, this log be sappy indeed!
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