Distinguishing Non-Corporeal Undead

[Scott]

How much of a difference do you think the appearance of non-corporeal undead have? Could you tell a wraith from a ghost from a spectre just based on appearance?

[GRWelsh]

Once characters have encountered different versions, yes, I think they should be able to recognize some subtle differences among the undead, including the non-corporeal undead.

I would say this is especially true for clerics and paladins who have confronted and turned these sorts of undead in the past.

But on the first encounter -- no.

[Merkholz]

I suppose that wraith are more "unformed" without distinguishable features while spectres have clear features though incorporeal. Ghosts cannot be seen at all until they "materialize" and probably resemble spectres when they've entered the Prime.

The sense of dread, evil and the power of the undead's presence could also describe the type of undead the PCs are facing but this should be relative to the PCs level and general experience rather than a standard description IMO.

[geneweigel]

I'd say the ghost and banshee can be sorted from the spectre and the wraith perhaps because they are ethereal non-corporeal versus just plain negative plane non-corporeal. In addition, I think with this in mind their non-generative aspect might make them distinctive appearing from other undead.

Gygax's color code of the planes (DRA #8 JUL 1977) might be suggested:

1) Purple, The PRIME MATERIAL
2) Yellow, The POSITIVE MATERIAL PLANE
3) Grey, The NEGATIVE MATERIAL PLANE
4) Lt. Blue The AIR ELEMENTAL PLANE
5) Red The FIRE ELEMENTAL PLANE
6) Green The EARTH ELEMENTAL PLANE
7) Blue The WATER ELEMENTAL PLANE
8) Orange, The ETHEREAL PLANE
9) Lt. Blue, The ASTRAL PLANE
10) Blue, The SEVEN HEAVENS
11) Lt. Blue, The HAPPY HUNTING GROUNDS
12) Blue, The TWIN PARADISES
13) Lt. Blue, OLYMPUS
14) Blue, ELYSIUM
15) Blue/Grey, GLADSHEIM
16) Grey, LIMBO
17) Red/Grey, PANDEMONIUM
18) Red, The 666 LAYERS OF THE ABYSS
19) Lt. Red, TARTERUS
20) Red, HADES
21) Lt. Red, GEHENNA
22) Red, The NINE HELLS
23) Red/Grey, ACHERON
24) Grey, NIRVANA
25) Blue/Grey, ARCADIA

A bright orange ghost is kind of weird but if subtle then why not?

[geneweigel]

EDIT: Heh, I totally got that mixed up the spectre with the ghost showing a picture of a spectre with red and yellow eyes from the MONSTER CARDS... never mind!

[geneweigel]

From A2 SECRET OF THE SLAVER'S STOCKADE (1981) Phantom encounter:

There a luminescent shape begins to form the figure of a
wasted elf struggling with ghostly chains that hold him to the
wall. As the party watches, the figure breaks its chains and
comes rushing forwards.

Phantom stats from that replicated in MMII:

Phantoms are often mistaken to be ghosts, haunts or groaning
spirits, but may not be turned as undead. The clerical spell exorcism
will dispel a phantom.

From A2 SECRET OF THE SLAVER'S STOCKADE (1981) Haunt encounter:

As the light at the end of the hall is approached it will be seen to
actually be a glowing mist. The mist will slowly take on the
shape of a wasted man with black holes where his eyes should
be. The moaning will echo from all around and the figure will
reach forward to touch a character. Any attack on the figure
will cause it to disappear. Two rounds later the figure will
reappear between the party and the exit.

Haunt stats fromthat replicated in MMII:

Haunts can assume either of 2 forms, at will: a hovering, luminescent
ball of light (identical in appearance to a will-0-wisp) or a nebulous,
translucent image of the haunt's former body. Haunts are similar in
appearance to a groaning spirit, spectre, or ghost, for which they are
often mistaken.

From MONSTER MANUAL II (1983) Drelb stats:

Unfortunately a drelb looks so
much like a wraith that one is indistinguishable from the other until an attack takes place.

From T1-4 TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL (1985) an editing mistake which reveals the drelb was supposed to be a new monster giving a Gary Gygax pedigree:

210a. GUARDIAN This area quarters a drelb, the guardian of the Air Temple. (See Appendix A, New Monsters, for a full description. )

MONSTER MANUAL II (1983) Pseudo-Undead stats:

The pseudo-undead are humanoid creatures who prosper due to their
physical similarity to certain undead monsters, such as ghouls, ghasts,
wights, wraiths, spectres, and vampires. Each pseudo-undead looksand
smells exactly like its parallel. The same number appear. The armor
class, movement rate, hit dice, number of attacks, and damage are the
same. Thus they can be moderately dangerous. However, they lack the
special attack forms (paralysis, leveldrain, etc.) of the undead, though
they have normal (6") infravision. Note that the stench of pseudoghasts
has the same effect as that of ghasts. Pseudowraiths and pseudospectres
cannot fly but walk so lightly as to leave no trace, and are often
thought (unless closely observed) to be floating above the surface,
although this is an illusion. Pseudovampires have red eyes and behave
menacingly but have no special abilities.

Based on these entries from all some more valid than others.

The A2 Harold Johnson with Tom Moldvay references are more valid than later Moldvay undead articles of the late 80's and 90's on the undead because its being done as part of an Advanced team under Gygax. [However that said, what about Moldvay's really lame white ape in the 1981 Basic? Moldvay said BASIC 81 had kids in mind but did the white ape have to have to be so lame? Kids' impressions of gorillas are the opposite (and absolutely true but thats another issue! ).

The haunt and phantom seem to be in a category of the banshee as unturnable but exorcisable. "Non-deal ghosts"?

The drelb is a big one that it can be mistaken for a wraith and doesn't mention anything else.

The pseudo-undead I just threw in there but still its something huge thrown in there while Gary was still around. [But then again so was the FIEND FOLIO! ] Anyway, this concept alone says theres a difference in wraiths and spectres. And lets not forget that he MONSTER MANUAL says this about lemures:

These vaguely human blobs

After being in hell for a time certain lemures will be chosen to form
wraiths or spectres (qqv).

So what is the difference? Spectres are more solid appearing?

[Scott]

I don't remember Gary's specific wording, but he said that spectres could interact with objects on the prime and wraiths could not. A spectre could strap on a sword, throw on a black claok, etc. and be a Nazgul. Wraiths cannot interact with objects on the Prime in the same way. But in just their non-corporeal appearance, I don't know what difference there would be.

My guess was the higher you go up on the non-corporeal food chain, the more semblence the spirit retains to the body it occupied in life, simillar to the way a body would change when transforming into a ghoul. A wraith's features may be more distorted and horrific. A ghost may resemble Nearly Headless Nick from Harry Potter.

[geneweigel]

I was just reading SLAYERS GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD (2002) and ( in addition to getting headache from trying to gauge if it was actual Gygax writings ( ; ) )) there is a lot there mirroring what you're saying but there is a little more.

He elaborates on ghosts being "ether" (ethereal) creatures like I mentioned above.

He says spectres are negative material and have a detectable chill.

He says wraiths only can be distinguished as once human by their eyes the rest is usually a jet black silhouette. And then furthers and says that sometimes they have adornments but they aren't real like the spectre's equipment. Further he describes three new categories:

Purple wraith: most evil and formed by "Hell's lords" (which I'm assuming are the Archdevils of Hell and not the lesser infernal royalty lords, barons, dukes, etc.) This is interesting because it gets the original AD&D/D&D "energy drain" that this d20version wraith doesn't (CON drain).

Yellow Wraith: highly evil person dies of a disease. Gets a rotten disease similar to mummy but worse.

Red Wraith: is a sicko who dies violently. their attack makes one bleed and lose INT.

[Scott]

Ahh, I dig that book, but I lost my copy some time ago.

[geneweigel]

Well I signed a couple of hardcopies:

Good Gaming
All the Best
ARCHMAGE WEIGEL
MASTER OF GENIES...

No...no... I didn't...