GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on May 12, 2009 22:13:36 GMT -5
Gary had grids of characteristics for alignment/ethoi that he used in D&D/Mythus that helped delineate where a person/monster was oriented. Perhaps something like that would be useful... I mean, all philosophy aside, when a cleric casts "detect evil" on Drodgor the Anti-Paladin, he's gonna get the green light for sure. And his chaos is fairly evident for any who have watched him in action. Likewise, Eric the Paladin who strictly follows his knightly creed and tenets is certainly good and lawful. A Druid who follows the ways of his order--those of nature itself-- is certainly neutral.In real life instances it's easier to argue whether Al Capone was Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil; but in an epic fantasy game that doesn't get too tied down with "Forgotten Realmsian" sub-motives, it's usually pretty clear. Also, alignment can change for a character (look at Robilar...), but not without consequences in some respects! ^__^
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Post by Scott on May 12, 2009 22:16:10 GMT -5
I don't think that was what was in mind, the robbing for sustenance, when bandits were statted up, especially when you consider the treasure type. I think there's more to it than that, what separates bandits from brigands.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 12, 2009 22:27:27 GMT -5
Well, a bandit is simply a "robber", and by that definition Robin Hood was a bandit too. I reckon a Bandit could therefor be Neutral (Evil), Neutral or Neutral (Good). Although they are often used interchangeably, a brigand tends to systematically plunder, and thereby eke their living. For them, I suspect Gary had the "looting, pillaging and raping" tag--hence Chaotic Evil (some could be Chaotic Neutral, I suppose, depending on their actions...
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 12, 2009 22:36:13 GMT -5
By bandit, I suppose you could consider Robin Hood, John Dillinger and the guy who holds up the 7-11for grocery money... three different types of bandits, acting in different areas of interest. Maybe Gary chose Neutral to cover that wide array, but each individual might vary somewhat. Rather like dwarves being listed as Lawful Good in general, but Obmi obviously breaks that mold. ^__^
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 6:22:41 GMT -5
To keep the Stars placated, I will move the alignment discussion to the AD&D section.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 7:20:46 GMT -5
So, back to St. Cuthbert, then... I simply play him as an ascended mortal who at this point in time is a lesser deity; but in all honesty I never really considered where he came from. He's probably been around more than 500 years, since his arch-foe Iuz is only a demigod (although it has been argued that 1) Iuz is older than 500 years and 2) Maybe that's all the higher Iuz has been able to advance as a cambion). Gary considered Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, etc. as "lesser deities", so demons seem to be limited...
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 7:44:34 GMT -5
It's possibility Iuz's imprisonment affected his divine status. Also, Gary stated that he didn't envision Iuz as too competent, I remember him describing Iuz along the lines of a spoiled bratty child prone to temper tantrums. So his status may be more the result of his heritage and assistance from his mother, and less personal accomplishment.
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Post by geneweigel on May 13, 2009 7:56:53 GMT -5
I just clicked on my link to the remnant of my old Greyhawk webpage to see that stuff about Cuthbert that i had did with Gary to jar my memory and they said "Geocities" is being discontinued by Yahoo. Whew, Its been a loooooong time. www.geocities.com/wildbillhackock/trowbane.htmlAnyway, we had a conversation about this. They were mortal and contemporaries around the same time (post migration not settled on specifics). They were immortalized by the gods as in plural. I recall the quasi-deities/demi-gods/lesser gods/greater gods as a progression question and he suggested leaving it open for question as the quasi-deity character rules that he mentioned in Dragon were never published anyway.
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 8:02:28 GMT -5
Wow, I haven't seen that in a while.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 9:11:13 GMT -5
Here's a bit I did on the whole Iggwilv-Iuz-Tharizdun cycle (with references): The following information can be used with the 1E AD&D modules S4 and WG4 to round out the history that ties the two together. Sources used to compile this include the S4 and WG4 modules, the World of Greyhawk Box Set, The Slayers Guide To Dragons, and personal correspondence between Gary Gygax and Paul Stormberg, Michael Kasparian and myself.
In ages gone, the mighty deity of evil known as Tharizdun was imprisoned by a coalition of other deities utilizing a tripartite artifact which was sundered into its three pieces and then hidden away. However, such was the evil of Tharizdun that a “leakage” of his vile essence was able to form into an avatar and once again gathered worshippers and attempted to regain power on Oerth. However, in a secret stronghold within the Yatil Mountains and not too distant from the fane that Tharizdun had set up for himself, there dwelt the Arch-mage Tsojcanth. Acting in concert with several like-minded Clerics and Magic-Users and channeling powers lent by Pelor and other deities of weal, Tsojcanth was able to imprison the Tharizdun avatar in an improved and extended form of “bound slumber” in -280 CY (5236 SD). However, the effort cost Tsojcanth his life, and so his stronghold and the research and artifacts therein were forgotten. Meanwhile, there also existed an Arch-mage known as Iggwilv. Sometime around 70 CY, she had born the evil cambion Iuz with the demon lord Graz’zt. Around 460 CY, she discovered the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and began using his research and magic items to increase her own power. Between 468 and 478*, the Witch began subjugating Perrenland and nearby regions. At the end of this decade, she accidentally freed Graz’zt, whom she had managed to imprison around 275 CY) and in the ensuing battle, Graz’zt was banished to his home plane of the Abyss but Iggwilv was sorely stricken and lost much power. She used the last of her power to prepare the Lost Caverns as a vault for her treasures and left her warrior daughter Drelzna (now a vampire…) and Ghorkai (an Indigo Dragon—crossbreed of a blue and a black dragon—former steed of Drelzna) as guardians. Drelzna remained entombed in the Caverns, while Ghorkai eventually removed himself to a chasm to the south. Around 515 CY, Ghorkai began making forays of conquest of his own. Meanwhile, around 500 CY, Iuz had been imprisoned by the demigod Zagyg in Castle Greyhawk, and remained there until freed by Robilar in 570 CY. *Gary tells Michael Kasparian “500 years” before the present, but the S4 module states “a century” which makes more sense, so that is what we go with here! The 500 years statement was more likely applicable to Iuz and his territory… The following were answers to questions from Michael Kasparian: Q: Who, exactly, was Tsojcanth? A: I imagined him as one of the exceptionally potent magic-wielders who arise amongst humans every so often. I considered him the channel used by the Good deities for the further abridgement of the actual Tharizdun, as it were. Tsojcanth and a circle of other mages of good alignment, and certainly others of like persuasion and other capacities, assailed and defeated the followers of the avatar Tharizdun, and then by sympathetic means, and empowered by deital power [Pelor being prevalent], Tsojcanth (and his associated mages lending their power to him so as he could survive channeling of deital energies) forced the avatar Tharizdun to rejoin its parent entity. I did not identify Tsojcanth as to race, but I think he was more likely Flan or Oeridian than a Suloise. He was certainly human and of Good alignment. {from Michael Kasparian}
Q: When would you say was the Temple [of Tharizdun] in the Yatils Mountains constructed? A: I had in mind that it was built not long after the Suel-Bakluni Wars. {from Michael Kasparian}
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 10:03:12 GMT -5
Outside of the facts that they are of opposing ethoi and that they operate in close proximity geographically, did Gary ever state why St. Cuthbert and Iuz share such enmity--not that any other reasons are needed--just wondering...
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Post by geneweigel on May 13, 2009 10:12:03 GMT -5
I actually had this conversation with Gary regarding Tharizdun's avatar but it was in person and its completely forgotten at this point...
I'm sure I talked on a forum about it.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 10:17:03 GMT -5
It was probably on Dave Cook's forum... JUST KIDDING!!! ^__^
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 10:32:17 GMT -5
Somewhere I have the printout from Gary's first online chat where he originally stated who Tsojcanth was and that he had imprisoned the avatar of Tharizdun, but I'll have to dig around for that.
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 14:14:27 GMT -5
The Iuz timeline is really screwed up. Calling him the Old One, and including text that implies he's totally ancient, and meshing that with the Iggwilv timeline. And the issue with Iuz being imprisoned in the Greyhawk dungeons when he was building temples and forging artifacts with Zuggtmoy. To be honest, for the longest time I was never much of a fan of the Iuz character, but as time goes by, I become more interested. Maybe due to all the thought I've put in trying to figure outthe timelines.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 14:33:33 GMT -5
You can always accept the "work of genius"* timeline that I've cobbled together!
*Quoted from the 'Vesve Region Times' "By the forces of the Outer Planes, that may or may not follow alignments, this is a sheer work of genius!!!" ;D
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on May 13, 2009 14:36:29 GMT -5
C'mon Scott--accept the "Consolidation Side" and help unite the galaxy!!!
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Falconer
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Post by Falconer on May 13, 2009 15:04:42 GMT -5
I always figured that Iuz got the nickname "the Old" because he passed as Human for such a long time, eventually people who had that mindset about him began to see that he was getting very, very old for a human.
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 15:53:57 GMT -5
One reason I date Iuz as old as I do is that the Land of Iuz entry implies that he has always been there, or at least has been there since the migrations. Another thing is that his racial indicator is Flan. He may not have always been a god though; maybe that did occur around the same time St. Cuthbert was rising in power. Perhaps the land of Iuz used to extend further south, and St. Cuthbert helped drive him back north of Whyestil Lake.
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Post by Scott on May 13, 2009 15:58:11 GMT -5
It's obvious that connecting Iuz to Iggwilv was an afterthought. It was a good move that has been a part of the core of Greyhawk ever since, but it made a mess of the timelines. I think Gary intended Iuz to be much older than would fit comfortably with an Iggwilv timeline.
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