That Thrommel thing...

[GT]

...think about it. It's a win-win if the SB helps to foment problems between the Furyondy-Veluna group and Iuz (and possibly the Horned Society). And the "accursed" Greyhawk area favored by Zagyg caught in between!

[Scott]

I've thought about it many times since the idea was put forth. It's never grown on me.

[GT]

Then we must bring in Zuggtmoy to convince you! Then it will "grow on you"... like MOLD!!!! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

[GRWelsh]

From GT: When a question is asked concerning Thrommel and his incarceration, Gary states: "How about this: The Scarlet Brotherhood captures Thrommel and sells him to the Temple. Could be, eh?"

It may not be that the Temple hired the SB to capture Thrommel -- the capturing may have been fortuitous. For example, if Thrommel was travelling several years after the Battle of Emridy Meadows and ran into some trouble, and agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood happened to be involved in that trouble. Then, the Brothers of the Scarlet Sign realized what they had, and just how badly the Temple wanted revenge...

[Scott]

But what point does it serve other than throwing in another name?

[GT]

Perhaps it was this incident that first brought the SB to the attention of the West?

[geneweigel]

Wow, I completely deleted this episode of "AS THE OERTH TURNS"...

I was a little shocked to discover that what you two are going back and forth over is related to that "Gary's false memory" theory that I stirred up a while back.

If I hadn't have said that then the ball would have kept rolling. This Thrommel thing just may be the Great Greyhawk Swindle. Thats the only way to explain how Gary was coerced into believing something he had nothing to do with.

How could Sargent have known about the SB kidnapping unless it was mistake? That should have been brought up to Gary.

Gary made a mistake because he can't contradict his own writing just to appease some latter day incongruity:

Senshock is privy to certain secrets of
luz', but will never reveal anything of great
import. If captured and examined by ESP or
similar means, however, Senshock can provide
one interesting tidbit — luz is working
against the Scarlet Brotherhood, and seeks
both Zuggtmoy (whose location is
unknown even to him) and his mother Igwlf
(believed lost in the great Abyss) to aid him
in this task. If charmed or otherwise magically
coerced to reveal his secrets, Senshock
will suddenly and mysteriously die, slain by
luz himself.

They've convinced Gary about this so much that it rolls off his tongue.

[Scott]

A couple of things.
The text of Gary's quote , the "how about this...", implies it's an off the cuff remark.
Since Iuz is an evil, scheming, backstabbing type he would readily hire the Brotherhood for something, and work against them at the same time. Not that I think the SB had anything to do with the kidnapping.

[geneweigel]

However, that segment would have been the place to make the statement in parentheses not 15 years later when you're no longer allowed or even wanted by the current holders and a legion of imbeciles' opinions are being taken first over yours ina discussion that started about the botched jobs of stuff you weren't around for.

You can't take it out of that context.

This shit being vintaged at this point is the only thing that merits acceptance.

Frankly, the semicolon in that instance is irrelevant in the other date highlights so why it should have been accepted as a "furthermore" instead of "around that time" never entered my head until Sargent's mistake.

But who gives a flying fuck anyway except those people? They've filled in blank maps with blankness and "character meets character" fan fiction type spew. If Mr G saw fit to amuse them in that instance then thats okay but I'd rather have a retcon that features the SB travelling through a dimensional portal and kidnapping Lorraine Williams, Carl Sargent, Ed Greenwood, Jeff Grubb, Roger Moore, Zeb Cook, etc. and fricaseeing their asses!

[geneweigel]

To shovel this turd under the carpet, I 'd suggest "Henry the VIIIth-ing" the Furondy-Veluna together with Thromm's little bro and forget it all ever happened starting with the Gazetteer's tidbits about the TOEE. Its over, time to move on. TOEE is dead.

That said, TOEE may be dead but TOEE type situations with all new TOEE type characters is what this is about, right? So these are footnotes and we'll take the best of the best in that regard.

So SB kidnapping? Who cares?

[Scott]

Who has run the ToEE, and what was the result with Thrommel?
When I ran this, the party rescued him.

[ghul]

When I ran it, they didn't care about Thrommel or anyone else's agenda. My players just wanted to kill things and take their stuff, but we were just pimple-faced teenagers. :-)

[geneweigel]

Yes, and he gave them titles and land in Furyondy.

[Scott]

Most of the people I know have a similar result, and I believe that was the intent.
If we were to do some updated setting info, I think this should be taken into consideration. It would also help in seperating this from the official wreckage.

[geneweigel]

I can recall a few "user anectdotes" that had the same results as me and the ones that didn't were in "minimalist railroad" type campaigns where the DM overtaxes you and never gives xp or treasure.

[GT]

Well, Scott... after careful cogitation, I can concede that Gary probably made the SB comment off the cuff, and an anonymous force of Iuz is most likely. As to Thrommel's fate at the hands of players, the only ones who made it that far said: "Hmmm... a pre-staked vampire in a Temple of Evil? Something ain't right here..." ^__^

[GT]

As an aside, I spoke with a 3/3.5 E-playing buddy of mine and he said every single group he ran through it destroyed the "vampire" out of hand. --SIGH!!!!--

[geneweigel]

Its that "THUS SPAKE GARY GYGAX" that gives later validation to the earlier SB remark which started this assumption on our parts:

Q: Who were Prince Thrommel’s kidnappers?
A: The Scarlet Brotherhood enacted the deed but they were in the
employ of Nyrond.

Here the answer seems more confident than the previous examples but to say that this is anything but:

A) Originally based on an attempt from Sargent's/Moore's/Mona's camp to give them validation

B) that in this & prior instances regarding this same subject that Gary's POV is one of mildly creative, effortless commentary

C) A & B have snowballed into a mess

is a waste of time.

Avoiding this entirely is probably the best route. The real story would (in my opinion) most likely have been the temple directly or a heretofore unknown group.... ...and that most likely with many "tiers"...

[Scott]

Sometimes the obvious choice is the best choice. What purpose would having the Scarlet Brotherhood (in the employ of Nyrond) being responsible for the kidnapping serve other than to needlessly complicate things? Iuz/the Temple have the capabilities and the motive. Unless you want to create some crazy plot why Nyrond is out to sabotage Furyondy/Veluna and aid the ToEE, that should be good enough.

[geneweigel]

admin said:

Unless you want to create some crazy plot why Nyrond is out to sabotage Furyondy/Veluna and aid the ToEE,

They are for the most part interchangeable as "ex-Aerdi" since not much more was said on them.