The Manual of the Planes

[GT]

So, Steve... we covered some of this on Rob's board about three years ago, but what ultimately happened to the Book of the Planes? Was it the T$R takeover of the Blumes and Lorraine, or something else that led to the ultimately unsatisfying product that Jeff Grubb released? Also, what year did you and Gary start working on the project? I think that I first heard tell around 1978, but there was some speculation that you had actually begun work before that... ^__^

[GT]

Another question: Was the proposed "Starstrands" module the adventure that Eric Shook was working on of a similar name, or something else? And what was "Old Shards"?

[ethesis]

gt said:

So, Steve... we covered some of this on Rob's board about three years ago, but what ultimately happened to the Book of the Planes? Was it the T$R takeover of the Blumes and Lorraine, or something else that led to the ultimately unsatisfying product that Jeff Grubb released? Also, what year did you and Gary start working on the project? I think that I first heard tell around 1978, but there was some speculation that you had actually begun work before that... ^__^

My guess was that Jeff was told to fill in the gap that was left, and did what he could.

I started work on interplaner FRPG in 1968 but never got anywhere until I encountered D&D. Mystics, etc., surfaced in 1974 or so and from then on the project was in progress, more or less (usually less) until today.

[ethesis]

gt said:

Another question: Was the proposed "Starstrands" module the adventure that Eric Shook was working on of a similar name, or something else? And what was "Old Shards"?

Well, I actually started putting what I had on Starstrands on-line at adrr.com/story/ -- I need to pull up the exact url. Now realize that I'm using it as the backdrop for stories I'm writing with and for a 12 year old girl (my daughter who is now in her second year of college).

adrr.com/story/sketch.htm#StarStrands

Old Shards, how did you run across that? I did a rough of a supplement, a la Greyhawk, about 1975 or so, and Old Shards was the working title. Should have a picture of a guy on a flying carpet with a chest behind him, a crystal ball in front of him and a staff to his side to go with that title.

I'm amazed that anyone has encountered that phrase.

[Scott]

Greg, what did you have in mind for this?

[GT]

A concise, yet informative version of the Planes, Inner and Outer, with encounter tables for each plane as well. No more "iron cubes of Acheron" or "worldlets of Tarterus"--back to the charnel, miasmal Acheron ruled by Netherlords and the dark planes of Tarterus with their quicksand bogs and tar pits! Etc. Maybe a "cleaned up" version of some things too, like the Githyanki and Githzerai. Two items of note: it was correspondance on Elemental/Para-Elemental/Quasi-Elemental Planes back in 1986 ( I believe...) that was my first mailing back and forth with Gary, and two: Jeff Grubb used to game with the Dungeons of Purdue group same as me. He was a year or two older than I. So don't ask me why he went off on such a tangent on some of the Planes, unless the Blumes or somebody told him to... ^__^

[Scott]

Would separate books, not necessarily per plane, be an option?

[geneweigel]

Grubb was from the Hellpits of Purdue? Well, that explains everything!!!

Just kidding!

I had a boss from Purdue who was like an archduke of Hell though!

[GT]

admin said:

Would separate books, not necessarily per plane, be an option?

Well, yes... but what I have isn't even a full book--I can dig it up and send it to you if you want (along with repetitive critter stats that I've already sent you!) It's certainly closer to Gary's version than what was handed to 2E... ^__^

[geneweigel]

It was probably legal. There is a lot of legalities that Gary reveals from time to time about the ideas.

[ethesis]

gt said:

A concise, yet informative version of the Planes, Inner and Outer, with encounter tables for each plane as well. No more "iron cubes of Acheron" or "worldlets of Tarterus"--back to the charnel, miasmal Acheron ruled by Netherlords and the dark planes of Tarterus with their quicksand bogs and tar pits! Etc. Maybe a "cleaned up" version of some things too, like the Githyanki and Githzerai. Two items of note: it was correspondance on Elemental/Para-Elemental/Quasi-Elemental Planes back in 1986 ( I believe...) that was my first mailing back and forth with Gary, and two: Jeff Grubb used to game with the Dungeons of Purdue group same as me. He was a year or two older than I. So don't ask me why he went off on such a tangent on some of the Planes, unless the Blumes or somebody told him to... ^__^

I'd love to see someone put together something with lots of texture.

I think poor Jeff was constrained to not do anything new, which makes me feel sympathetic to him. It can be hard when you are given a pile of things, told to make it all consistent and at the same time make it generic enough that it doesn't do anything new.

[geneweigel]

I think poor Jeff was constrained to not do anything new, which makes me feel sympathetic to him.

Well, I for one was someone that bought post-Gary TSR crap for over a decade confused as to what had happened and eagerly waiting til the time when Mr Gygax was coming back. Then I found out almost a decade later what happened. So having read (and paid for) all of Grubb's TSR "work", I couldn't possibly sympathize even if he spontaneously combusted!

One word:

PLANESCAPE.

Heck, now that I think about it I wouldn't mind if he got jailtime for planescape!!!

[GT]

I do wonder if the designers post-Gary were told something like: "be creative and distance yourself from the originnal... we're gonna trash it all shortly anyway, starting with this 'Castle Greyhawk' module! Sieg Heil, Lorraine!!"

[geneweigel]

Well, Jim Ward's GREYHAWK ADVENTURES is the "shot heard round the world" in that case.

The MotP intro by Grubb makes the accusation that the planes were "Fibber McGee's closet" and that they had heretofore been assembled by idiotic old time radio situation comedy characters so that shows the grand old arrogance that post-Gygax TSR staff had directly. It was those kind of remarks that were often found in Dragon Magazine with a large dose of heavy disdain for the good stuff implying that it was "juvenile" at best. I doubt saying nasty things was part of some "rigueur-de-Williams" mandated from above. They put things down to make themselves seem more authentic in general it seemed.

[GT]

But, by Nerull!!!! HE RUINED TARTERUS!!!!!! AND ACHERON AS WELL; NOT TO MENTION THE "GEAR MONSTROSITY" OF NIRVANA!!!! AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Scott]

Would this project be based on the default 1E cosmology, or something new?

[GT]

Default 1E. The Mythus Planar system was yet another interpretation, and a bit more complex--allowing it to encompass all the various planes of various mythologies.