Things That Aren't Said...

[geneweigel]

I just noticed this:

Humans and demihumans have these fields of study under sages:

Art & Music
Biology
Demography
History
Languages
Legends & Folklore
Law & Customs
Philosophy & Ethics
Politics & Genealogy
Psychology
Sociology
Theology & Myth

And humanoids & giantkind have most of those but are missing;

Art & Music
Philosophy & Ethics
Politics & Genealogy
Psychology

there goes the gnoll bard apologies right down the toilet...

[Scott]

You're preaching to the choir.
That was Mona, I think. I know it wasn't Rob writing. He defended the concept, and then it turned out he didn’t know the details of the encounter. His point was that gnoll culture could produce their own unique version of a bard, and then it was pointed out that the character in question was just a straight up puffy shirt wearing, fancy stringed instrument collecting, dandy of a bard, that just happened to be a gnoll.
I wonder how much of Rob’s projects were farmed out. Besides the Maure Castle stuff, Tower of Blood definitely does not have a Rob feel to it, Cairn of the Skeleton King is OK, but it’s kind of bland. I know he was trying to get ghost writers for his part of CZ when he was still on the project.

[Rhuvein]

Oct 11, 2008 16:07:37 GMT -5 Scott said:

I wonder how much of Rob’s projects were farmed out. Besides the Maure Castle stuff, Tower of Blood definitely does not have a Rob feel to it, Cairn of the Skeleton King is OK, but it’s kind of bland. I know he was trying to get ghost writers for his part of CZ when he was still on the project.

Heh, Halaster has made some interesting claims on his site about working with Rob to ghost write CZ. Not sure if you guys have seen this thread on his site:

undermountain.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=229

[GRWelsh]

Where did this "gnoll bard" encounter first show up? Who wrote it?

[Scott]

It was one of the Maure Castle dungeon levels published in Dungeon.
Rob was the author, but Mona was credited also, and someone else too, I think. I'm at work now. Can't look it up.

[geneweigel]

I think its an "update" (if thats what they call an update: the same thing but whacked) of the third level room #48.

[GT]

I was rather infamous for "laying smack" on that, both online and in person. ^__^

[GT]

Well, that was about a year and a half ago that Halaster wrote that, and we since know that several points therein are false. First, Gary and Rob's falling out on the project was over how close to make it to the original. Gary wanted to "improve" portions of it for the general public, and Rob wanted to leave them the same. I am currently "improving" Lost Ziggurat before I give out copies, and it appears that Eric Smith will be helping me out. The original was fun, but I know that it could be better! I'll be eliciting Scott's input on this as well... Point being, the adventure as we ran it back in 1993 (started writing in 1992) was great fun, but I always knew that it would be better if it was ever released to the public. The same goes with Greyhawk (Zagyg) Castle. Parts of it just weren't up to snuff in original form--vague notes, scribbled over maps, etc. If Gary thought that it could be better, then more power to him. As to disparaging Gary's authoring ability, I will simply say: "Dungeon Master's Guide, Tomb of Horrors and Necropolis". I don't know how Rob's end of "farming out" his part of CZ was going but I do know that Gary's fingerprints are all over the Upper Works. If Jeff added things and Gary said "Hey! That's good!", so much the better. Personally, I don't want a set of odd notes and hand-written maps--those are great for the historian in me, but not for the DM/GM/JM in me. Rob seems to like the "original but incomplete" module; witness "Bottled City" and "Dark Druids". He can write some great material, but the follow-through often is not there. I'm still miffed about the whole "disappear without any word to the fans" thing too. You've got my number and e-mail Rob, and I'm always there to talk if things aren't going well... ^__^

[GRWelsh]

Well, maybe it worked out for the best then... If Gary wanted to co-write Upper Works with Rob, and Rob wanted to farm out his end of the work to a separate writer (Halaster)... then maybe it is better that Rob left the project and Gary ended up giving direction directly to a separate writer (ghul).

Honestly, I'm thankful we got what we got. When I was holding it my hands, I thought "this is something that feels like it shouldn't exist" as if we pulled it out of some alternate dimension of "What If." I think Jeff deserves a lot of credit for his part in making this happen.

I accept that this is still not exactly the historical Castle Greyhawk. Although that's a product I'd love to see as well: an annotated, unabridged and unmodified look at the oldest maps and notes, with all its warts*, balrogs and gates to Barsoom. But that wouldn't have been as feasible perhaps as a playable product, or in line with what EGG wanted to publish.

* Warts on a bas-relief stone-face, that is.

[geneweigel]

Oct 11, 2008 17:09:59 GMT -5 Rhuvein said:

Oct 11, 2008 16:07:37 GMT -5 Scott said:

I wonder how much of Rob’s projects were farmed out. Besides the Maure Castle stuff, Tower of Blood definitely does not have a Rob feel to it, Cairn of the Skeleton King is OK, but it’s kind of bland. I know he was trying to get ghost writers for his part of CZ when he was still on the project.

Heh, Halaster has made some interesting claims on his site about working with Rob to ghost write CZ. Not sure if you guys have seen this thread on his site:

undermountain.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=229

Despite, his status as the bullyrag maximus of the Realms, I'm inclined to believe him absolutely in that regard. The truth is that what went into that place was a lot of wishful thinking and sometimes that wishful thinking yielded fruit.

[geneweigel]

I'd like to see the original Hawk as well but in what form? IN WHAT FORM?!?!



Seriously, its been a vague area of shifting levels with various characters coming and going.

What could it possibly look like now that its beyond a dream?

I even featured the castle in a game once but it fast became a "cover" of Gygaxesque counter world style and it wasn't even close to those old crew anectdotes about shafts, balrogs, "enigmas", etc., etc. because frankly I wasn't aware of that part at the time. All I ever knew was that T$R wasn't giving us the "Hawk style" and thats about it. I was shooting from the gut.

This is the complete Gene Weigel rundown of how Castle Greyhawk went down in my campaign:

They basically encountered Eneever Zig in the city he sent them to "Mauve Castle" which was the name of the town. They dodged going to "Maure castle" (the dungeon , I called this Mauve too)again then that was it for Zig.

Years later, they were found by Zig again some as different characters not sure who played but one was a thief. He wanted them to find the entrance to the Greyhawk Dungeons. Bunch of run-of-the-mill encounters in the outside ruins but then they fought a shadow demon who fled under the stairs. This lead them to an immediate long corridor with many doors. After seeing that it was mostly "new tenants" who's treasures had nothing spectacular they left planning to return to "Zig". They weren't getting away that easy. On the way back they got shifted into another dimension (what a bastard!) where they encountered some meat and potatoes demons/treasure/etc. associated with that same shadow demon from earlier) Afterwards, they followed up on old leads from old notes and totally dismissed the CG entrance as there was easier treasure elsewhere.

And thats about it.

Behind the DM screen: I used liberally adapted tracings of the Geomorphs and the Moldvay era Monster Treasure Assortment for the rooms at random ( I didn't have the originals but always replaced the silly lizards/spiders but I used "white apes" and "thouls".) So that was the "smoke and mirrors". The end of the long corridor was the dimensional rift but since they didn't go I felt ripped off and just threw them in there outside the castle. I used 2 of the lost MMII demons but I can't recall the rest. I have an "on the spot/during the game" drawing of one of the demons somewhere (it was never depicted officially in AD&D but I think it was rendered later by some yack.)