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Post by Scott on Sept 8, 2014 9:30:32 GMT -5
Didn't see a need for a Rtt ToH.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 8, 2014 12:20:44 GMT -5
Yeah, I especially was keen on the Borderlands and its 20 steps below on every aspect. It was just another cash-in.
If they had some kind of demarkation each time you thought you had something good for D&D that didn't pan out we would be up to the 9 billionth variety!
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Post by Scott on Sept 9, 2014 12:02:54 GMT -5
You could say the first D20 Maure Castle installment was a 'Return to' adventure. It, and the ToEE Return to adventure were both more like re-imaginings than return to adventures. Many of the actions that most likely occurred during the original adventures are wiped away, or given very lame explanation for how certain things were reset back to the original state (or close to the original state). And of course, Maure Castle had the infamous gnoll bard.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 9, 2014 15:36:58 GMT -5
I was so intimate with behind the scenes of what was going on in Gygax and Kuntz productions of the last decade that I can't even look the other way and find something to use in all that mess. You know what I had passed on the shelf and almost picked up the other day? SIR ROBILAR'S CITY OF BRASS (2003). Talk about a bomb. I made such a stink over that and it didn't deliver in any way, shape or form. If I was going to drag myself through the muck I would bring up my tenure as a Pied Piper. Damn amateurs on the internet!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 1, 2018 14:23:56 GMT -5
I think Orcus works, considering all of the undead that are around. But I also like the idea of coming up with an original demon prince or lord for this role. I have always liked that "Pale Man" monster from PAN'S LABYRINTH. It captures that perfect sense of creepiness that I would think would exist in a demonic plane. So, I was thinking of a rutterkin-like demon lord: pale, flabby, a bit off as far as where his eyes or facial features should be, with strangely angular and unnerving movements. I was wondering what shrine of evil chaos deities might work: I would rather not use Tharizdun, the EEG is a possibility, but I'm not sure about using here...Orcus is possible... Nerull seems like it could fit? What about Beltar or Erythnul? Could it even be Ralishaz? I have always been confused by Ralishaz and the antagonism of Norebo towards Ralishaz. Also the planar locations of these deities? Is Ralishaz so chaotic that his alignment varies? Does he always reside on Limbo, or is his planar locale subject to entropy? Since Ralishaz is chance and entropy slanted towards woe, why is he not a resident of Pandemonium instead of Limbo? In Dragon #71 his alignment is Chaotic (evil). In WOG & TOEE he is CN(E). Are clerics of Ralishaz either of CN or CE alignment? Can clerics of Ralishaz have episodic alternating alignments, possible to rarely even be CG? Bipolar-flavored? Then there is Norebo. Why is his locale not Limbo instead of Pandemonium? In WOG & TOEE he is CN. In Dragon #86 he is chaotic neutral with evil tendencies? He is becoming more unsavory, but he has his sporting standards? Maybe the evil priest has been suckered into the thrall of Yeenoghu worship? There's some undead connections to be found there... Perhaps the area #51 blockage, when cleared, has passage to an ancient Temple to either Yeenoghu or Orcus? Or else might it be a passage to rival Baphomet temple?
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2018 12:24:59 GMT -5
I'd say any chaotic evil deity, demon lord or demon prince would work. If the evil priest will attempt to flee down the tunnel blocked at #51, it always made me wonder what was down there... If he's aware a rival temple is there, it seems doubtful he'd try to escape in that direction.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 2, 2018 13:05:49 GMT -5
The phrase choice, 'shrine/chapel/temple of evil chaos' makes me wonder if the emphasis is greater on chaos, only modified by evil?
It could have been called the 'shrine/chapel/temple of chaotic evil' instead...?
Any difference in content implied by the phrase choice, or not...?
Yet the chief cleric is known simply as the 'evil priest'.
Maybe the 'evil priest' was corrupted by the chapel artifacts, and was once of neutral or even good alignment...?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 2, 2018 13:25:21 GMT -5
Also, the crypt is referred to as having 'the remains of servants of the Temple of Chaos'.
Is it an implied difference that in the past, these now dead servants served a Chaotic Neutral deity, that has since been supplanted by the 'evil chaos' worshippers?
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2018 13:44:18 GMT -5
No, I think that is a reference to the three point alignment system in Basic D&D when Chaos was loosely associated with Evil (cf. "Three Hearts and Three Lions," the "Elric" series, etc.).
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 2, 2018 13:56:13 GMT -5
No, I think that is a reference to the three point alignment system in Basic D&D when Chaos was loosely associated with Evil (cf. "Three Hearts and Three Lions," the "Elric" series, etc.). Gotcha, it is interesting that there is a helmet of alignment change hidden in the crypt tomb which contains the wight...it makes me wonder if there was a former religion that had been corrupted some time ago to evil chaos...?
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 3, 2018 6:48:49 GMT -5
Someone said yesterday about an associate,"she's into d&d...but...(blank stare)... You know." I have a bit of an update on that, they're at the point of calling me in as a Harvey Keitel "cleaner". I think like all things D&D you have to keep it as simple as you're willing to go. To find out more on Orcus is a massive task. There are some bits in the GORD THE ROGUE series. Here is a tidbit into the feel of Orcus in person from COME ENDLESS DARKNESS - Chapter 2 (1988): Also the 2002 D20 book SLAYER'S GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD by Gary has a lot of detail on Orcus and the Orcus cult. About 3 pages. Too much to be shown here but from the description could easily fit in B2's Shrine of Evil Chaos.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 3, 2018 8:09:08 GMT -5
Gotcha, it is interesting that there is a helmet of alignment change hidden in the crypt tomb which contains the wight...it makes me wonder if there was a former religion that had been corrupted some time ago to evil chaos...? There is a subtle "Defeat us and you may become us!" curse-theme going on here, isn't there? I didn't think much of the helm of alignment change being there, as it is just a standard cursed magic item in the rules list. But in conjunction with the relics of evil chaos that can change your alignment... You might be onto something! The heroes who defeat the cult return to become them. And perhaps in the distant past, priests found these relics and the helm of alignment change and founded this shrine in the first place... Could be!
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Post by Scott on Aug 3, 2018 11:46:30 GMT -5
Someone said yesterday about an associate,"she's into d&d...but...(blank stare)... You know." I have a bit of an update on that, they're at the point of calling me in as a Harvey Keitel "cleaner". I think like all things D&D you have to keep it as simple as you're willing to go. To find out more on Orcus is a massive task. There are some bits in the GORD THE ROGUE series. Here is a tidbit into the feel of Orcus in person from COME ENDLESS DARKNESS - Chapter 2 (1988): Also the 2002 D20 book SLAYER'S GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD by Gary has a lot of detail on Orcus and the Orcus cult. About 3 pages. Too much to be shown here but from the description could easily fit in B2's Shrine of Evil Chaos. Way off topic, but it struck me that maybe Iuz and Orcus have been allies at times through the ages, which could be the inspiration for the "by-blow of Orcus" theory. With no help from his parents available, and hungry for power, he would have been willing to accept extra-planer help where he could get it. And Orcus would have seen young Iuz as a useful pawn in creating his own realm on the Flanaess. And then along came the army of good, Cuthbert, high priest of Rao amongst them. At the end of the struggle Orcus may have given up on his ambitions for the time being, and Iuz's might would have been checked for a time. But the rivalry between Iuz and St. Cuthbert would linger on. You could drop Orcus from all that and it would still work from a strictly Greyhawk perspective, but I've always thought B2 and Rappan Athuk would work well in Greyhawk in the Northern Vesve along the west coast of Whyestil Lake,
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 3, 2018 12:56:13 GMT -5
Someone said yesterday about an associate,"she's into d&d...but...(blank stare)... You know." I have a bit of an update on that, they're at the point of calling me in as a Harvey Keitel "cleaner". I think like all things D&D you have to keep it as simple as you're willing to go. To find out more on Orcus is a massive task. There are some bits in the GORD THE ROGUE series. Here is a tidbit into the feel of Orcus in person from COME ENDLESS DARKNESS - Chapter 2 (1988): Also the 2002 D20 book SLAYER'S GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD by Gary has a lot of detail on Orcus and the Orcus cult. About 3 pages. Too much to be shown here but from the description could easily fit in B2's Shrine of Evil Chaos. I have not heard of SLAYER'S GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD? What interesting details were revealed about Orcus and the Orcus cult that were not present up through 1e MM and DMG?
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 3, 2018 13:11:15 GMT -5
The Iuz and Orcus dynamic is on again off again throughout the Greyhawk stories but I think it is the way of the demons.
As for the SLAYERS GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD, I am so biased in favor of it that I should be treated as a hostile foreign saboteur. I had a heavy influence on it because I discussed the undead in D&D with Gary majorly just prior to it being published while he was developing. So he gave me a tribute in the text instead of a direct credit.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Aug 3, 2018 13:44:00 GMT -5
The Iuz and Orcus dynamic is on again off again throughout the Greyhawk stories but I think it is the way of the demons. As for the SLAYERS GUIDE TO THE UNDEAD, I am so biased in favor of it that I should be treated as a hostile foreign saboteur. I had a heavy influence on it because I discussed the undead in D&D with Gary majorly just prior to it being published while he was developing. So he gave me a tribute in the text instead of a direct credit. I imagine that some of Orcus' cult minions may appear similar to cover art for the band, Khemmis - like their 'Hunted' album cover...
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 3, 2018 18:13:51 GMT -5
In regards in general to "evil chaos", Gary went over exactly how they (CE powers)act in DRAGON #29 (AUG 1979). Devil "dukes" (not the "arch-devils" who are "king devils") act through proxy by greater/lesser devils sent to the prime material but demons up that ante:
So the shrine of evil chaos would have a direct unique proxy. If it was for Orcus then he would not show up, as he is a prince, but unique demon lords vying for Orcus' attention would deal with the cults.
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