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Post by Scott on Nov 9, 2004 13:01:37 GMT -5
I'll be starting a new campaign Saturday, and I'll be kicking it off with The Keep on the Borderlands. I'm trying to decide what demon or god the priests of the shrine might venerate. The EEG seems like a good fit, but I'd prefer that entity's followers to be rare in the extreme, and since I'll be running the GD series, and a reworked ToEE featuring the EEG, I don't want his followers popping up all over the place. I'm thinking about using Orcus, but I haven't decied yet. Any suggestions? Scott
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Falconer
Enchanter
Knight Bachelor
AD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Posts: 330
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Post by Falconer on Nov 10, 2004 18:37:27 GMT -5
I like it as the EEG, or rather, the vague cult of Elemental Evil as a lead-in to ToEE. Since the EEG is never actually mentioned in ToEE, it's a startling revelation in G3. True, it's hard to maintain that he's rare if the PCs keep accidentally running into the rare remnants of his cult, but it does create a good "EEG Saga".
Another idea is Hextor--patron deity of some of the races present. Problem is that he's lawful, and apart from the name "Caves of Chaos", the chaotic nature of the place is, indeed, as evident as its evil. So you'd have to make a change somewhere. Regards.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Nov 12, 2004 1:46:47 GMT -5
I like the EEG too. It could have been Iuz -related as well in my campaign, as I set it next to the Vesve Forest near the Velverdyva River. Look at the scheme and map of the module and then compare it to the description of the Vesve in the Greyhawk set. Heh!!
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Post by Scott on Nov 12, 2004 7:26:40 GMT -5
In the past I've always set it in the Vesve, but I'm going to place it on the western border of the Pomarj this time to lead into future campaign events. Scott
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Post by grodog on Nov 12, 2004 16:21:49 GMT -5
If you're putting it in the Pomarj, you could always make the shrine ot the Earth Dragon cult, or perhaps the pit fiend Rob placed in the Drachsengrabs.....
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Post by Scott on Nov 12, 2004 17:28:50 GMT -5
Hadn't thought about the Earth Dragon Cult. The creepy wierdness doesn't seem to work. The EEG seems to fit, but I'm trying to refrain from over-using what should be a very rare element. I thought about the Pit Fiend, but it doesn't fit the chaos. Might use that as a mini-adventure to follow up the Slavers series though, depending on how capable the party is. Scott
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 3, 2014 15:41:18 GMT -5
I think Orcus works, considering all of the undead that are around. But I also like the idea of coming up with an original demon prince or lord for this role. I have always liked that "Pale Man" monster from PAN'S LABYRINTH. It captures that perfect sense of creepiness that I would think would exist in a demonic plane. So, I was thinking of a rutterkin-like demon lord: pale, flabby, a bit off as far as where his eyes or facial features should be, with strangely angular and unnerving movements.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 3, 2014 17:07:29 GMT -5
I understand where you're coming from but I think when we were first playing it no one cared who the evil god was and if they did they just made it up on the spot. Years later, in the mid-80's I recall people using Orcus because he had become a household name practically... "Get out of bed, Orcus the Prince of the Undead, or it'll be no biscuits for you!" just kidding! But seriously, if you wanted a "retro-thing" I wouldn't touch post-D&D fantasy films with a ten foot pole its too regurged. Perhaps come up with something fresh that is jamming out "Orcus" as a concept.
The C.A.S. god Mordiggian, a worm-like and dragon-sized shadow monster from "THE CHARNEL GOD" (WEIRD TALES March, 1934) with the ghoul priests popped into my head so I just breezed through it but I forgot the semantics of the cult in the story where the god was "just". So I guess he's at least lawful in some degree.
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Post by Scott on Sept 4, 2014 21:29:21 GMT -5
I think if I run it again, I would go with the EEG or Tharizdun. I've resisted over using them both so well that I've never actually used either, and they're both such big parts of Greyhawk's story.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2014 7:45:26 GMT -5
I don't know for me that would be too limited in scope. One coming from underground and the other being something forgotten and more "neutral evil" in aspect. On the other hand, Orcus has a negative connotation that weighs hard on the character: BLOODSTONE series (1985-1988) really is the albatross around the neck of Orcus. Those modules came across like steak-flavored marmalade and man, how we tried to make something out of that "corporate product office-spun" mess. Regardless of semantics the presence of Orcus in this area co-opted for FORGOTTEN REALMS to try to give FR some kind of a pedigree (SEE OA's Kara-Tur (1985) as well) Orcus grudgingly came along for the realms ride giving us this as a priest of Orcus in 1989: Heh, I kid you not I was in a campaign in 1992 and a DM presented this image. I think the image was reprinted in an insert in one of the MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM binders (1989-1993). And he looked at all the players with a shit-eating grin as if this was supposed to evoke fear of some kind. So anyway, I think this is why Orcus is old hat. He's like any attempt at making a new Bugs Bunny appearance. You really have to make it short and sweet and bring back the rotten for example Bugs in WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT (1988) as the bastard of yesterday is what you need to bring to the Orcus cult. It has to ring of something vicious unseen before instead of good old familiar legitimized Orcus.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 5, 2014 9:42:43 GMT -5
What is difficult to recapture is that version of Orcus as a pagan Etruscan god of the underworld, a divine entity on the outskirts of the Roman pantheon, considered by Christianity to be a demon* -- with veiled references in the Middle Ages, and a mention in Milton's PARADISE LOST. This is probably where the 'Orcus' of the 1e Monster Manual comes from.
Something else hard to recapture is how the clerics of D&D Basic were seen by many players as essentially Christians, by default, and so the evil clerics were some variation of Satanist. I even had some players write "Christian" on the religion line of their character sheets. In the 1970's and even into the early 80's evil priests were seen as Satanists/cultists and so the evil altars and trappings and such were reminiscent of some kind of Black Mass. So, they could be plugged right into all of the folklore and superstition of Western culture -- but that seems to be something lost with the development of fictional campaign worlds not directly related to earth.
*As with all pagan or foreign gods not adopted and made saints.
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Post by Scott on Sept 5, 2014 9:49:16 GMT -5
Didn't they kill Orcus for a while? It was a plot by some other FR undead god/godess I think. That and when the Lolth typo became the official spelling were moments I thought, 'Are they trying to make me quit playing this game?'.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2014 10:19:11 GMT -5
What is difficult to recapture is that version of Orcus as a pagan Estruscan god of the underworld, a divine entity on the outskirts of the Roman pantheon, considered by Christianity to be a demon* -- with veiled references in the Middle Ages, and a mention in Milton's PARADISE LOST. This is probably where the 'Orcus' of the 1e Monster Manual comes from. Something else hard to recapture is how the clerics of D&D Basic were seen by many players as essentially Christians, by default, and so the evil clerics were some variation of Satanist. I even had some players write "Christian" on the religion line of their character sheets. In the 1970's and even into the early 80's evil priests were seen as Satanists/cultists and so the evil altars and trappings and such were reminiscent of some kind of Black Mass. So, they could be plugged right into all of the folklore and superstition of Western culture -- but that seems to be something lost with the development of fictional campaign worlds not directly related to earth. *As with all pagan or foreign gods not adopted and made saints. I agree. The Etruscan step off into your imagination is probably where to start because if you relay too much "game" the impact of real fear is lost. The images in those tombs are weirder than the D&D version.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2014 10:28:52 GMT -5
Didn't they kill Orcus for a while? It was a plot by some other FR undead god/godess I think. That and when the Lolth typo became the official spelling were moments I thought, 'Are they trying to make me quit playing this game?'. Yeah, TSR without Gygax (TWOG?)is infamous for their mistakes. Like the shit that I pointed out in my only appearance in DRAGON Magazine (#200 in December 1993 in reference to the Greyhawk designers {Ward, Sargent, etc.} being incompetent which they only used my mention that they used the Flan names of humanoids for orc tribes.).
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 5, 2014 10:54:00 GMT -5
Didn't they kill Orcus for a while? It was a plot by some other FR undead god/godess I think. That and when the Lolth typo became the official spelling were moments I thought, 'Are they trying to make me quit playing this game?'. LOL, I forgot about that. There was some kind of Planescape adventure, where they killed off Orcus, but he came back to life and renamed himself Tenebrous. I don't know any more, because I don't want to.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 5, 2014 14:22:01 GMT -5
I quoted the wrong post on that last comment that I made. OOPS.
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Post by Scott on Sept 5, 2014 14:32:01 GMT -5
I guessed by your post.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 6, 2014 10:26:37 GMT -5
I remember the "Tenebrous" thing but looking back at that Planescape stuff is annoying especially since its unflappingly accepted by so many "unD&D-ites". (I can't believe Planescape is alive and well in D&D since its creation. The new 5E has all the IP insular and ultimately annoying crap all over again.)
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 8, 2014 8:10:00 GMT -5
Someone said yesterday about an associate,"she's into d&d...but...(blank stare)... You know." The era of 2e sloppery came to mind. Remember all the RETURN TO adventures of the 90s? That "keep" one was a giant pile of "word garbage". They used everything on a path of no imagination and ended up with Ereshkigal as the deity. Whereas if a detail was added by D&D's principal, E. Gary Gygax, you would have a all new content and unpredictability. It could even have been the temple of Pelor but that would be too bland for his thinking. It would be an incarnation of Pelor as a "saint" that fell into ruin and became the source of a new god as well as a new artifact or several new artifacts and there is no need to not let you use your imagination with the provided details of their combat abilities. thats the difference between real d&d and shit d&d right there.
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Post by Scott on Sept 8, 2014 9:29:06 GMT -5
Yeah, a lot of people loved the Return to stuff. Return to Keep on the Borderlands wasn't a bad idea. Obviously wasn't a fan of the Ishkabibble Shrine, but for the most part it's not a bad low level cave crawl. White Plume Mountain was perfect for a Return to adventure, but I really did not like the direction they went with this. Return to the ToEE: Would love to have seen more of Gary's original ideas. The thing that got published deserves to be sealed behind four sets of giant, rune-warded, chained, magical doors.
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