Building a Cosmology

[Scott]

Also, and this is mentioned in the article Gene quoted, many individuals will not have a single patron god. I'd say most wouldn't; your average person would just petition a god that is associated with whatever issue he or she was hoping to recvieve some aid with.
I do like the idea of a god's abilities meing subject to variations based on certain circumstances, but I don't like the straight worshipper = hit point/power point idea.

[GT]

Well, there's a bit of "fantasy" logic to it, as in "fervent worship"= "mental power (vril?)", but as noted it doesn't justify the power of creator deities. I guess I use a little of both; ie: the power of Iuz and Heironneus might grow with worship, but Obad-hai for example will wax and wane to some extent with the health of Oerth... clear as mud, right? ^__^

[GT]

I reckon I'd better add: A god has more power than any standard mortal, regardless; but how great that power is can sometimes vary. Again: I draw upon Conan and Elric stories for inspiration... ;D

[Scott]

I'll have to toss around a few ideas.

[Scott]

With Iuz, do you think he would have a sizable body of worshippers left after being locked away for decades in Zagyg's dungeon? He doesn't seem like the kind of god whose followers would stick around after he vanished. Sundry scum who would bow to any being stronger than they are, and certainly not the types to pass their religion to the next generation after their god has been a no show for the last few decades. There might have been some priests loyal, but they would have probably been dead for some time when Robilar released the nine.

[GT]

Not while he was locked away, but after he was freed--those fickle followers would fervently flock to his banner as a bastion of strength and chaos against the Horned Society and Furyondy/Veluna! After all, they would respect his ability to deal death to them as well as to his Good foes. And don't forget his less-than-secret alliance with a major Demoness...

[GT]

Tharizdun would be a good illustration of your thesis-- if freed, he would still have a great amount of power at his disposal; although he would still have to regather his forces to be at his previous level of power from millenia in the past!

[Scott]

But how strong would he be with so few followers after being released? Strong enough to rebuild his kingdom in less than a decade? Not if his power depended on the number of followers he had, which would be about zero at the time, and his demonic ally was imprisoned herself at the time of his release. Most of his humanoid followers are lawful, so it seems like they would prefer the Horned Society.

[GT]

Well, he is "only" a demigod and most of his power probably lies within himself, but it's apparent that he still had some steadfast followers to "keep the faith alive" while he was imprisoned. After all, it really wasn't that long of a time that Zagyg had him kept away in Greyhawk. One school of thought holds that Ehlonna, Hextor, Heironneus, etc. fell into 'demigod status' while imprisoned, but upon re-asserting their power after their release they regained their former deitific status...

[GT]

So tell me, Scott: GW and I (OK, mostly me) have some powerful beings of Conordant Opposition in the works. I play the plane as a "true neutral" area; not as a bazaar for all alignments as per later AD&D... How do you use this plane (if at all)

[Scott]

I treat it the same way I treat the other outer planes. Concordant Opposition would be as neutral as the hells are lawful evil.

[GT]

I knew I liked this board for good reasons!!! ;D Seriously; somebody had read too much Robert Aspirin (who I actually do like...) when they came up with the "new concept" of Concordant Opposition. If that was you, Jeff Grubb, then SHAME!!!!!!

[Scott]

But that all happened in an alternate dimension that doesn't affect my reality.

[GT]

Well put!

[GRWelsh]

A demigod like Iuz would easily acquire followers while he is active and about, simply due to them seeing the advantage of siding with a powerful being. But such folk wouldn't necessarily be very loyal to a being that is missing in action for several decades, or be likely to have founded a religion that flourishes in the absence of such a deity able to grant spells, communicate with them, etc. Chaotic evil sorts would be more likely to turn their allegiance to some other being that could provide them the quick route to power. Also, Iuz' influence seems largely limited to the realm he rules: "Few creatures beyond the boundary of his domain will speak his name, let alone adore him" (Guide p. 71).

Anyway, a god has to be powerful enough to get worshippers in the first place. If the source of a god's power is solely equated to how many worshippers he has, it sets up a kind of "chicken and the egg" riddle. An evil god, especially, has to have some kind of power to begin with, for others to follow him -- what villain, humanoid raider, or ruthless brigand wants to worship a weakling?

I'd always imagined Iuz's rise to power as a mortal (albeit cambion demon) who grew in experience levels, perhaps dual-classed, and eventually became a quasi-deity. His character classes are 16th level cleric and 16th level assassin. Maybe he was once a cleric of Orcus, thus explaining the rumor that he could have been the by-blow of that Demon Prince. As a grandfather of assassins, maybe he eliminated all the other petty lords, brigand chiefs and former nobles of the Northern Reach, to seize control of the Howling Hills, and finally gain in power enough to descend upon, or establish, Dorakaa and Molag and create a new realm... Upon rising to quasi-deity status, he got to go past the mortal limit of 15th level assassin, and get that extra level. Also, upon becoming of deity status himself, he no longer needed to worship another to gain his power, and threw over his allegiance to Orcus. Demons, being as they are, may have shifting relationships and allegiances. Lawful evil humanoids would willingly follow Iuz, because as a strong enough dictator he would be the Final Authority, and his success led them to victories. But with his disappearance, such humanoids would more likely join up with more like-minded leaders -- such as the Horned Society. Iuz's domain, with no clear successor, would likely descend into disarray or a state of civil war.

[Scott]

I wouldn't consider the bulk of his followers to be 'followers'. Troops would be more accurate.
I think the number of followers might give the god some sort of bonus, but I'm not sure what kind. Maybe a sort of JOSS pool from the Mythus system.

[geneweigel]

Peter Adkison's "The Primal Order" books (published by WotC prior to MtG) are actually quite good inspiration for building pantheons, worlds, churches and their hierarchies, etc. Well-worth digging up if you're a fan of the Dragon 97 article, Gene!

I seriously would consider not even buying a ticket to GenCon because if it would snub Adkison just an iota...

"Sorry, Mr Adkison, but if you had sold one more ticket you wouldn't have to be executed by beheading for borrowing from the Afghani mafia..."

"WEIGEL!!!!!"



Seriously, "TPO" wasn't to my taste.