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Post by Scott on Oct 20, 2007 12:53:07 GMT -5
In your ideal setting, how many gods do you think there should be? How many greater, lesser, and demi-gods are there? Gods in this case would be beings capable of granting spells. In my opinion, that does include beings such as demon princes, arch devils, etc.
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ghul
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Posts: 272
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Post by ghul on Oct 20, 2007 13:45:30 GMT -5
My ideal setting is comprised of several pantheons. The location of the character's birth determines what pantheon he or she is likely to pay homage to. Not to be overlooked is the large amount of commoners who pay tribute to "household" deities, ones concerned with home and hearth. Examples of these can be Beory. I have also used Frigga in this capacity. In my present game I am using the Greyhawk pantheons and the Norse as well. Of course there will be societies (urban and suburban) where demons are appeased (this does not necessarily imply the granting of spells). I also believe in using the DMG model on how spells are granted:
It is assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character has received a course of instruction, served as a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric to use first level spells. • Continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empowers him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon. • Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric’s deity. That is, through meditation, and prayer, the priest’s needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by minions of the deity. • Cleric spells of sixth level (and above) are granted by direct communication from the deity itself. There is no intermediary in this case, and the priest has a direct channel to the deity, from whom he or she receives the special power to cast the given spells of these levels.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 20, 2007 17:08:19 GMT -5
I like the way the Greyhawk Gods are set up -- a fairly large number, and an eclectic bunch, with some linked to certain cultures and others having spread to the point of being considered "Common" (sort of like how the Jewish god of the Bible has spread everywhere). From a gaming point of view, as long as there are gods for each character class and race, and of enough alignments to cover everyone, that is all that is needed.
I have always wanted to see more development with the saints, hero-deities and quasi-deities, because these are the sorts of gods high-level characters might reasonably interact with, fight, or even aspire to become. Along with beings like solars, planetars and devas, they would be the logical supernatural servants who would be granting the mid-range spells. So, a god may have some 'saints' under him, who the devoted would call upon for certain kinds of help, and they may even be more likely to do divine interventions when called upon.
I had always looked at Saint Cuthbert as an example of a mortal man who rose into the ranks of godhood, and even though he is a lesser god, his followers have retained the colloquial usage of his title as 'saint' -- even though in the Greyhawk Cosmology he is now actually beyond that deific rank.
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ghul
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Post by ghul on Oct 22, 2007 15:14:18 GMT -5
Hey, there was an article that covered a lot of saints in Dragon back in the day, and I recall liking it but never worked it into any of my campaigns. But if you are using themes of devas and devils, and demons (oh, my!) it might be worth looking into, but don't ask me which issue it was...
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Post by Scott on Oct 23, 2007 11:07:45 GMT -5
While I like the Greyhawk gods individually, the cosmology has a hodgepodge feel to me, and it lacks any real depth of information at the pantheon level. I am going to flesh out a cosmology idea I tossed around earlier. There will be the Ainur-type beings, those that predate the ‘world’, but are tied to it. These include spirits that range in power from your lesser demons, solars, up to the Aratar, the original greater gods. To these beings will be added beings whose attention has been drawn to the setting from other places, and mortal beings who have attained immortal status. Most of the Aratar/Valar types are universal, being present in the many regionalized pantheons under different names and appearances. To these would be added beings specific to the regional campaigns.
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ghul
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Post by ghul on Oct 25, 2007 7:37:17 GMT -5
The hodgepodge nature you cite, IMO, can be attributed to how the Flaeness populations have developed. The migrations, the Inoked Devastation, the Rain of Colorless Fire, the arrival of demi-humans. Of the Flan were the first human race, but as other races migrated to what we call "Greyhawk" I think the various pantheons began to cobble together. It would, however, be interesting to look at then as strict pantheons, and I think DMPrata did this in his deitybase, but my only issue with that is all the post Gygaxian deities included.
You bring up a good point. Wouldn't it be fun to run a sort of primitive all-Flan campaign with just their deities and not clerics, per se, but shaman and witch doctors?
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 25, 2007 17:53:51 GMT -5
All the Greyhawk Cosmology lacks is a story to go with the gods. Sure, there are a few bits here and there, such as Zagyg trapping the nine demigods, Olidammara escaping capture with his tortoise shell, etc. The story is the best part. But the Greyhawk Cosmology was never developed to the level of detail of the Norse or Greek mythologies, Arthurian myths, or the Silmarillion. You know that Pelor is a greater sun god, but you don't have any stories to go along with that. And there is no explanation of why some gods are connected to certain cultures. What is Oeridian about Procan, for example?
You could easily impose Scott's idea of three categories on the Greyhawk gods: original, outsider, and ascended. A fourth category might be descended.
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ghul
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Post by ghul on Oct 26, 2007 8:17:40 GMT -5
Such treatment has been executed by a few of the GH fans at Canonfore, but these are unofficial, albeit often well-thought out developments.
In my Greyhawk campaign, which also makes use of Castle Zagyg's setting (The East Mark) I am using the GH pantheons and also the Tenoric (Norse / Teutonic).
By ascended, do you mean demi-gods such as Murlynd that were once mortal?
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 3, 2007 19:29:35 GMT -5
Yes, I was thinking of 'ascended' as in mortals who have been granted godhood, and I've always been intrigued by the hints about special tasks and questests that superior personages might undertake to become quasi-deities (back in Dragon #71 or so).
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 5, 2007 12:30:52 GMT -5
The precedent set by WOG was:
Common, racial
then
separate cults
so having twelve sun god religions for example is to me the correct calibration to be in the zone.
For example, I don't ike "Beemer of the Sun" being the only god of the sun in a campaign and all things "sun-related" being the realm of Beemer.
I've played those campaigns and its "deus ex machina" just walking around. I like so many incarnations thats its incoherent as to the truth and opening the way is going to be convoluted and not so easy to comprehend, etc.. Thats an ideal S&S fantasy world to me.
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Nov 19, 2007 18:11:27 GMT -5
I'm biased--I liked all of the deities (and other beings of power--Modrons, Slaad Lords, and see Gene's collection of beings when it goes public!) from the old Greyhawk, and added in a couple of my own. It harkens back to Conan and Elric, though, where there were gods all over the place! Didja all hear that the 4th Edition is combining Greyhawk and FR deities for its Cosmology? So instead of Hextor, Bane--for example...
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Post by grodog on Nov 21, 2007 22:17:50 GMT -5
I've always like the idea of lots and lots of gods, including living gods who are ascending and descending the power curves, various lost/forgotten/faded/trapped/banished/etc. gods, local place gods (the Earth Dragon is one example), the fey courts, the various mortals who ascended/descended to godhood (saints, death knights, demonic knights of doom, quasi-deities, hero-gods, and demi-gods), and such. Like Scott, I throw the greatest demons/devils/daemons/et al into the mix too.
In particular, I always thought there should be more of the least gods (quasi-, hero-, demi-) since they're the easiest to create, and the most likely to die in the divine battles that go on.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 30, 2007 12:01:47 GMT -5
I agree. Hey whatever happened to the quasi-deities? Oh, I forgot. Hostile takeover -> puerile "dragon babies" content -> guileless type D&D-ers dig their claws in/ etc. ...DAMMIT! Don't you think D&D fans before the bad years should get some form of restitution? Seriously, Zagyg had a small shrine in Greyhawk and no real worshippers so how do these other quasi-deities manage to get power if a demigod has zip? This is one of the GH enigmas. Do they all fall under the category of Boccob's minions or something like that?
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GT
Wizard
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Post by GT on Dec 1, 2007 1:32:44 GMT -5
I think the quasi-deities are still functioning largely under their own power, and as you say, Zagyg gets alot of his power from Boccob! ^__^
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 1, 2007 10:31:36 GMT -5
Worshippers may provide one source of power for gods... but gods may not necessarily have to have worshippers. I've never assumed no worshippers = no power. Otherwise you could end up with scenarios like that cartoon in the DMG where the wizard's familiar is held hostage:
"One false move, Baal, and I'll cut the throat of your last follower -- and you'll go the way of Enki!" "Who?" "Exactly!"
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 1, 2007 13:58:29 GMT -5
I was basing this on DRAGON #97 (May 1985) where Gygax wrote in "DEITIES AND THEIR FAITHFUL": Ever since I had first read this I have been carrying it around like luggage. So forgive my assumptions! BTW, there's more detail to the article, I just didn't want to sample the whole entirety.
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Post by grodog on Dec 1, 2007 22:24:50 GMT -5
Peter Adkison's "The Primal Order" books (published by WotC prior to MtG) are actually quite good inspiration for building pantheons, worlds, churches and their hierarchies, etc. Well-worth digging up if you're a fan of the Dragon 97 article, Gene!
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Post by Scott on Dec 2, 2007 6:50:53 GMT -5
I think the worshippers = power thing is contradicted by the descriptions of Zagyg and Boccob. It also doesn't jive with the fact that in most creation myths, the gods are around before they have worshippers.
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ghul
Enchanter
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Post by ghul on Dec 2, 2007 9:51:26 GMT -5
I basically treat the quasi-deities as mortals ascended that do not necessarily have organized religious bodies worshiping them. Cults of enthusiasts, perhaps, so power from "believers" is on a limited scale.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Dec 2, 2007 13:33:44 GMT -5
I play a scenario wherein deities have twice their listed HP on their own planes and other powers as well. The given stats are for Oerthly manisfestation... I do play that deities gain powers from their worshippers, but as Scott pointed out some deities (creators) already possess awesome amounts of power regardless! Gary ranked such deities almost in a class of their own in subsequent game systems-- Tiamat, Apsu, Apep, Uranus, Gaia, etc.--such deities may not be the most predominant as far as worship, but nonetheless they are awesome in power! ^__^
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