Magic-User/Illusionists

[Scott]

Would you allow a dual classed magic-user/illusionist to memorize the listsed spells/day for both magic-user and illusionist spells? It doesn't seem like it should work that way. Illusionist spells are specialized m-u spells. I 5th level wizard could gain 20,000 xp as a m-u and gain the ability to cast one more 3rd level spell a day, or he could gain the same amount of xp and gain 4 1st level, 2 2nd level, and 1 3rd level illusionist spell a day for a total of 8 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd levels spells. It seems that spells/day should use the higher class, and max. spells/level should include both m-u and illusionist spells.

[geneweigel]

Thats probably a "call it as you see it".

It seems to me that spell recovery is always long and dragged out for those types making it "the balance".

In those "less is better" type low fantasy type campaigns (read: scrolls are like unique diamonds kind of minimalism) then the "compacted dual-class", that you're suggesting here, of a "subclass-compressed-into-main-class" is probably for the best. However, that may not be what the player was dualling for and they may see it as a seat-of-your-pants "retcon" of the rules (which doesn't apply to the m-u/clc dual-classes - [See Lich Example in Rogues Gallery]) based upon personal dislike. Yes, I've seen this case before in fact.

[dcas]

If you enforce the time required to memorize a spell (I think 10 minutes per spell level is the rule of thumb, although IIRC EGG recommends 15 minutes per spell level in the DMG), then it shouldn't be an issue. Your proposed 5th-level Magic-user/5th-level Illusionist would have to spend at least 220 minutes (3 hours and 40 minutes) just to memorize those spells.

I agree about the max. spells per level, however.

[Scott]

dcs said:

If you enforce the time required to memorize a spell (I think 10 minutes per spell level is the rule of thumb, although IIRC EGG recommends 15 minutes per spell level in the DMG), then it shouldn't be an issue. Your proposed 5th-level Magic-user/5th-level Illusionist would have to spend at least 220 minutes (3 hours and 40 minutes) just to memorize those spells.

That's only if you're memorizing from scratch each time, and you don't have a day in between forays.
Taking one day off in between is all it takes to make this restriction moot. There are times when time is an issue, but not in most cases.

[dcas]

admin said:

dcs said:

If you enforce the time required to memorize a spell (I think 10 minutes per spell level is the rule of thumb, although IIRC EGG recommends 15 minutes per spell level in the DMG), then it shouldn't be an issue. Your proposed 5th-level Magic-user/5th-level Illusionist would have to spend at least 220 minutes (3 hours and 40 minutes) just to memorize those spells.

That's only if you're memorizing from scratch each time, and you don't have a day in between forays.
Taking one day off in between is all it takes to make this restriction moot. There are times when time is an issue, but not in most cases.

I thought of that as I was writing. Still, I think with all things considered (hit points?) that essentially doubling the spells able to be cast in one day won't really be a game-breaker.

I can't really argue with your proposal, though -- if it works for your game, then it works for your game.

Would you allow a multi-classed magic-user/illusionist using the Castle Zagyg rules?

[Scott]

I'd me more inclined to think it was OK.

[visitor]

Illusionist magic is supposed to be different then magician magic, with its own non-magical script, etc. Even though the spells may have the same effects (just as some cleric spells have the same effect as some mu spells). So, handle this in the same way you handle a MU cleric combo. A cleric/MU that needs to memorize his spells for both classes would be subject to both classes memorization / prayer reqs. correct? Its exactly the same for a MU/ill (except no prayer of course).
Hope this hepled.

[skaguest]

Scott---I would go with just handling it like any other dual-class character without tinkering with the mechanics.

The Mu/Cleric is not altered in any way. He abides by both class requirements. Like a Mu/Illus., the Mu/Cleric will have access to more spells per day than the single class of MU or cleric.

I see no need to tinker. The character will have a lot of spells but will not gainany more hit points.

[GRWelsh]

I never even thought about before, but is a dual class with a class and sub-class, or two sub-classes, allowed? So you could have magic-user/illusionists, ranger/paladins, cleric/druids, etc.? That just doesn't seem right...

[Scott]

In OD&D, I think I remember it being forbidden. It's not mentioned in AD&D.

[dcas]

grashyewl said:

I never even thought about before, but is a dual class with a class and sub-class, or two sub-classes, allowed? So you could have magic-user/illusionists, ranger/paladins, cleric/druids, etc.? That just doesn't seem right...

Well, some of these can't happen because of alignment restrictions. There are no true-neutral clerics so a cleric/druid is out of the question. (Kind of like having a paladin/thief or a ranger/assassin.) I would be disinclined to allow a ranger to dual-class into paladin; a ranger is a ranger for life unless he falls from grace (in which case he is a fighter -- also for life).

[GRWelsh]

But EGG did make rules for multi-class druid/rangers, which seems to counter your point.

Although it doesn't explicitly forbid such dual-class combinations, by the book, they seem illogical to me. I don't think dual class combinations should involve a class with one of its subclasses, or two subclasses under the same class.

I never really liked how 1st edition magic-users and illusionists had two different 'languages' of magical script, either. If a magic-user finds a scroll with a phantasmal force written on it, he can't read it and use it if it is written in the 'illusionist' script. Yet a good cleric who finds a hold person scribed in goat's blood on black parchment by a priest of Orcus can use that without the slightest problem.

[geneweigel]

grashyewl said:

I never really liked how 1st edition magic-users and illusionists had two different 'languages' of magical script, either. If a magic-user finds a scroll with a phantasmal force written on it, he can't read it and use it if it is written in the 'illusionist' script. Yet a good cleric who finds a hold person scribed in goat's blood on black parchment by a priest of Orcus can use that without the slightest problem.

I guess the prayers would seem mystic (read:free) by being interchangable and the sorcery would seem more of a discipline (read: a pound of flesh) by making the MU and subclass(es) more fractious and competitive for their secrets.

I don't know just a hunch...

[Scott]

The cleric scroll/magic item issue bugged me for a while. The magic-user/illusionist combo doesn't bother me, but allowing full spell slots doesn't sit well.