Bishops and Barons

[GRWelsh]

I had the idea for player characters who have done significant contributions to the realm to be granted noble titles such as bishop (for clerics) and baron (for fighters). Has anyone else done anything similar? My rough sketch for how this may work in my campaign is that a sovereign such as the Grand Duke of Geoff may need help defending his borders and so may appoint march lords with a writ of land to rule and defend... But of course it is near the wilderness and thus still has much potential for adventure scenarios. What do you guys think? In T1-4 there was a reference to characters getting granted noble titles at Mitrik such as lord (for fighters) or elders of the land (for others), so there is some Gygaxian precedence for this. In my campaign a 9th level cleric reaching name level -- high priest -- can build a temple and attract more followers and this seems appropriate for such a character to perhaps be granted a title like bishop which would be roughly equivalent to baron or baronet, i.e. a landed lord in that realm. A dwarf thief reaching name level -- master thief at 10th level -- might take over a small, abandoned dwarf hall in the mountains cleared out with the help of the party and establish that as his hideout, attracting a small band of thieves and multi-classed thieves to become master of the hall.

[geneweigel]

Here is my experience with giving players the bishop title.

Page 89 of the DMG (1979) has a scaling for precedence with "bishop". I had overlooked that and made a "bishop" out of a dunce player when they should have been a "prior" on that scale.

It didn't sink into my head until I got the LEJENDARY ADVENTURE: THE CHRONICLES OF LEJENDARY EARTH GAZETTEER (2001) which has "priors" as far more separate than AD&D's layout and more complicated outside of the usual realm hierarchy and counterpart to a "dean". If you don't have that it goes on and on about hierarchical titles on pages 72-90 of APPENDIX A: GOVERNMENT FORMS AND SIMILAR POLITICAL STRUCTURES.

Bishops appear in that as "churchmen" ruled by the suzerain (Emperor, king, prince, etc) in the layout of "Feudalistic Type government Structure and the Organization of a Feudal-Type Realm" (pages 72-83)

Then he has "OTHER INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT STRUCTURES" which has:

"INDEPENDENT AND FREE CITIES" (page 88)

And under "Lord Mayor" are 3 equals "City Thaumaturge" (non-ecclesiastic magic-user), "City Chaplain" (ecclesiastic cleric) and "City Attorney"

"RELIGIOUS STRONGHOLDS" (page 89)

Under "The Ecclesiastic Head" are the "Prior" (temporal matters) and the "Dean" (spiritual matters)

This last one seems really crude "THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS" (page 90)
Dedicated Priests/Priestesses (Theurgists)

In an article for DRAGONSFOOT in 2001, Gary had another hierarchy which duplicates "priors" down two paths (One is equal to "lord" and the other is equal to "marquis" and seemed aimed at a general FRPG audience:

ROLE OF ECCESIASTICS

Interestingly, then along came the D20 book GARY GYGAX'S WORLD BUILDER (2004), the ecclesiastic hierarchy (There is a diet royal hierarchy) is not even approached except lightly in the definitions (Which I wont reprint as they are republishing that). However there is this definition of BUILDINGS, RELIGIOUS:

Bishop’s palace: A majestic abode, official residence of a bishop or* archbishop—in a fantasy milieu this would be a high priest or archpriest.

*corrected by me from "of"


So with this last "NAME LEVEL" suggestion in mind, even though it is cruder for gameplay, "bishop" would be a good quick grab but like I said it didn't sit right dubbing the "lighter" player.

[grodog]

Thanks Gene. I haven’t looked at LA in ages, and didn’t recall there being a lot of value in it. I’ll pull it out to take a look

Allan.

[Scott]

I think the land and title reward was pretty common in older, high level adventures. As you mentioned, the border baronies offer a lot of the same adventure opportunities that exist when PCs create their stronghold in the wilderness, but also create a bunch of intrigue and role playing opportunities. When you accept that grant you are beholden to the sovereign. Today’s just and kind ruler could be dead tomorrow and his heir could be Caligula. A rival noble who wanted that land for himself could try to make constant problems for the PCs. The leader may demand troops to help with some national security issue, and the troops moving out could be noticed by the local monster population and invite raids, etc.

[GRWelsh]

I was thinking of running some more politically themed adventures in which the player characters could interact with local bishops and barons and other minor nobles of the land. Any ideas? Some of my own ideas were to start developing relationships and tensions with local noble types to establish allies and perhaps rivals for down the road, such as when the player characters reach levels when they can establish strongholds and fiefs of their own. I wanted to do this to add more dimension to the campaign beyond merely going back and forth between the town and the dungeon or wilderness, to mix up game play, and allow for more role playing that can have later consequences. It can also help develop NPCs and the setting further to lay ground work for later political scheming and conflicts to go beyond the mere "good vs. evil" or "civilization vs. wilderness" themes. One theme that has already begun is the religious rivalry between worshippers of Pelor or St Cuthbert and those of Pholtus... I present the last as lawful zealots with history of being intolerant of witchcraft and also ambitious in wanting to be a state/official religion. I like these sorts of role playing rivals as they aren't simply out and out evil, but still can be obstructionist, arrogant or annoying... For example, the Fellowship of the Blinding Light may get angry or insulted if a cleric of Pelor is granted a bishopric, or a paladin of St Cuthbert made a knight commander or a march lord, and try to thwart such a noble appointment. They might be opponents yet ostensibly on the same 'side' (within the confines of law) and so can't simply be defeated by violence.

P. S. This isn't intended to reflect any real world politics but only get more into medieval heraldry, noble hierarchies, and religious differences which were always present in the World of Greyhawk yet don't always come into play with character vs. monster gaming. I believe EGG laid those seeds for the creative DM to nurture to add richness and complexity to an ongoing campaign.

[Scott]

You could have a noble who is a traitor, or been bought off by an enemy, an enemy of the crown, an evil cult, etc. and he is afraid the PCs' explorations might uncover the plot. An evil figure may have killed or imprisoned a noble and has now assumed the form of the noble and is working against the sovereign.
Another noble or religious figure can be inadvertently made to look bad because the PCs solved some issue that the NPC failed to.
Rival religions would always be looking for opportunities to make their own sect look good while making the rival appear less so.

[geneweigel]

I had the cavalier NPCs be abusive as a default so when the players rose as a heroic cavalier then it was a sharp contrast. So borderline paladins of lawful good were mostly assholes ready to "war it up" at the drop of a dime. Clerics/druids would "render unto Caesar" and support all warfare even if it was stupid. Magicians I had kept it very "Vancian" which is a mirror of (now archaic?) academia with "associates" (apprentices) sucking the ass of the "head of the department" (Wizards) before they go it alone to the "conference/retreat" ("Rhialto magicians", "white council", etc) with actual with court intrigues and warfare being means to "funding" (magic quests, etc.). The thief angle is more complicated as its all hostile constantly with intrigue getting ended to keep it all quiet. The barbarians I always handled "Conan" style with most NPCs as asshole quasi-monsters unless they of the regular classes were from urban areas of barbaric lands and act like other classes.

[GRWelsh]

Thanks for the ideas, guys. I initially had the players define "a friend, a relative and a rival" as NPCs from their backgrounds in the Hochoch area when they got started. Eric came up with the best idea of the patriarch of the Temple of Pelor being Asmath, who likes the easy life and has the unflattering nickname of "Ass-Mouth" to some of his own acolytes (i.e. more neutral leaning than good), and Randy came up with a paladin knight Sir Ryker of St Cuthbert mentor who helps train the local knights and men-at-arms who defend the town (lawful leaning). When Cindy's magic-user set off a magical trap of a sepia snake sigil and no one in town could dispel it, that prompted them to travel to Gorna where they met Ganter Gall the Green Wizard and the Patriarch Mithravus of the Shining Cathedral dedicated to their god Pholtus. The players were not happy at having to pay for dispel magic, but had no choice with these NPC's being initially distrustful and businesslike to foreigners. The player characters have also met the Grand Duke Owen of Geoff a few times, and returned the Lost Crown of Rholand to him for which he was appreciative. The Pholtusians tried and failed to do this themselves... The players developed a relationship with Ganter Gall whom they nicknamed the "Money Green Wizard" since he charged them for casting spells they needed such as dispel magic, remove curse and identify, but he became grudgingly respectful as they recovered material components for him. In the course of the campaign he became court wizard to the Grand Duke and took up residence in the castle above Gorna. He is of the Society of the Magivestre from which I've taken inspiration from the wizardly society in Jack Vance's RHIALTO THE MARVELLOUS. I like the idea of local wizards being eccentric, odd or even insane, as their various magical interests take them off in their own directions (yes, a bit like academics), and the players will encounter more of them in the future. So, the campaign has some of that Vancian flavor, with wizards being fractious, colorful and largely unreliable. Some bandits and mercenaries on the fringes want to set themselves up as independent, and there are nobles like selfish robber barons. I haven't done anything with the Magsmen's Brotherhood named in S3, but that's another organization I'd like to develop more in the campaign.

[GRWelsh]

I need to give my players a tougher challenge as in an NPC party sent by rivals after them... "You lot are a thorn in our side!" That sort of thing. They get the idea that their achievements are causing problems for others yet they aren't sure just who or what the others are... This reminds me of the assassin sent after a party in Hommlet if they brag about slaying Lareth in the moathouse dungeon. It adds a bit of drama to the campaign if the party gets attacked in an ostensibly safe space or along the road near it, and gives a greater sense of schemes going on in the campaign as a whole... I had a doppelganger try to infiltrate the Temple of Pelor once, by impersonating the cleric Dain, and that is a loose plot thread I haven't followed up on. That idea was that nefarious forces suspect the player characters recovered an evil magic weapon and were trying to find out where it was taken to... It was thwarted when Dain confronted 'himself' and raised the alarm and chased the doppelganger out of the temple but didn't catch it... The nefarious forces may be using doppelgangers or are allied with them in some way, and this portends greater intrigue for the future. I've always liked those monsters and thought they would work well with an organization of thieves, assassins and/or witches who want to use stealth and spying against a militarily stronger faction such as a walled town. Evil lycanthropes could work for this as well... Perhaps a minor baron or noble infected with lycanthropy or replaced by a doppelganger could be involved as part of a plot, to go along with one of Scott's ideas above.

[geneweigel]

Morality and S&S fantasy has Conan and LOTR to go by but I've been creative and asked "what is Chaos?" (As indifferent to morality and opposite of Law?) and it takes you down, not just cleric versus cleric but, into bizarre social situations that do not exist in quasi-historical reenactments. I touched on it with the "anti-druid" character that I did on the blog here:

justkeeponrollin.blogspot.com/search/label/acyfer%20the%20anti-demon?updated-max=2019-06-13T12:29:00-04:00&max-results=20&start=1&by-date=false

and here:

justkeeponrollin.blogspot.com/2019/06/so-below-part-one-b-profaner-class_13.html

So a lot of exploration of the pseudo-religious lends to campaign weirdness. But even magic-user exploration goes off the deep end when players want "more" from off the shelf material for example, having DMed at least 50 "necromancers" from at least 10 different books that I recall:
Lakofka's death master (DRAGON MAGAZINE #76 AUG 1983)
to the Specialist Mage (Necromancer example in Polyhedron #28 March 1986 the one that I talked to Jon Pickens about at Garycon),
to the 2E brain dead choice (2E PHB 1989),
to Lejendary Adventures: Mythus Magick Other Practicioners - Necromancer (1992),
to RIFTS AFRICA (1993),
to the 2E expansion version (Complete Book of Necromancers 1995),
to the Diablo Necromancer (From DIABLO II The Awakening 2000 for 2E),
to the 3rd edition D&D brain dead choice (3E Players Handbook 2000),
to the Lejendary Adventure "Necrourgist" (1999)
the Diablo necromancer redone for 3E(Diablerie 2000)
I feel like the acceptance of hidden "death masters/necromancers" is part of the quasi-medieval society even if the "common folk" do not see it. Where it is always a facade that is hidden in plain sight. Related to other suspicious activities from the mundane (brigands, thieves and assassins) to the supernatural (dark temples of terror). I would have never started a campaign that way but it played out that way.

[GRWelsh]

You can take the concepts of chaos and neutrality to weird extremes to come up with interesting variations: "So chaotic that cause doesn't even lead to effect" and that sort of thing, like with the deity who grants wishes in response to being attacked but not hit. "So neutral and uncaring that I don't even care that you just attacked me." It's an alien mentality. Being a death worshipper is self-negating as well. What exactly are you worshipping? What is odd in the AD&D world is that not everyone sees themselves as good, even if they think they are correct. But still, it could seem insane to outsiders.