Post by GRWelsh on Nov 17, 2023 18:53:54 GMT -5
This is a general thread for discussion of the Olvenfolk i.e. the elves of the World of Greyhawk. I know EGG was not the biggest fan of Tolkien and included elves, dwarves and halflings as playable characters in the game for the fantasy enthusiasts who were. Leonard Patt's "Rules for Middle Earth" appearing in THE COURIER Vol. II, #7 (1970) seemed to influence EGG including the Fantasy Supplement into CHAINMAIL (1971). That in turn influenced the rules Dave Arneson developed for BLACKMOOR, or as he initially called it, a "medieval Braunstein." When EGG played the "road version" of BLACKMOOR in late 1972 with Arneson as the referee it led to the collaboration that created D&D published in 1974. So, the demihumans -- including the elves -- have been there from the very beginning, or even before the beginning, of the D&D game. And there's no denying the Tolkien connection. For example in the MONSTER MANUAL there are the divisions of high, gray, wood and sea elves which are very reminiscent of the Tolkien divisions even using the same terminology.
My questions, however, are World of Greyhawk specific. How did EGG see the Olvenfolk? There are detail about how he saw them differently from Tolkien. D&D elves are long lived but not immortal. In Tolkien, the high, gray, wood and sea elves are the Calaquendi, Sindar, Nandor, and Falmari. In D&D they are not perfect analogies... The high elves seem to be the most common sort of elves and the ones players are assumed to be (at least in the 1978 PLAYERS HANDBOOK) and are described as pale skinned and dark haired like the Noldor and Teleri, but in Tolkien the High Elves refer to all of those who went to Valinor (possibly including descendants of them as well). The gray elves (or faeries) as described in D&D may seem more similar to the Vanyar of Tolkien since they are golden haired and considered noblest of the Elves. And in D&D the sea elves are actually aquatic elves who live underwater, in contrast to the Teleri of Tolkien who do not live underwater but by the coast and are shipwrights. In Tolkien Elves and Men are of the same stature, but in D&D elves are shorter and more slender. In Tolkien Elves are among the most powerful beings, often seeming far superior to mere Men, but in D&D although elves start out with more abilities and resistances and options (i.e. able to multi-class) humans have far more potential in all classes except thief. In Tolkien Elves are a major driving force of the legendary history of Middle Earth, but in the World of Greyhawk it is humanocentric with elves and other demihumans barely being mentioned implying they weren't nearly as relevant as the massive human events and migrations.
From EGG's point of view were the Olvenfolk mere window dressing? Tolkienesque? A joke (e. g. Fonkin Hoddypeak)? All of the above? What do you guys think? As an aside, when does the term demihuman first show up? It seems to imply small or lesser in a perjorative sense (e. g. demigod, demimonde, demitasse, etc... As my demi-aside, I enjoyed Italy but I'm glad to get back to full sized coffee mugs!).
My questions, however, are World of Greyhawk specific. How did EGG see the Olvenfolk? There are detail about how he saw them differently from Tolkien. D&D elves are long lived but not immortal. In Tolkien, the high, gray, wood and sea elves are the Calaquendi, Sindar, Nandor, and Falmari. In D&D they are not perfect analogies... The high elves seem to be the most common sort of elves and the ones players are assumed to be (at least in the 1978 PLAYERS HANDBOOK) and are described as pale skinned and dark haired like the Noldor and Teleri, but in Tolkien the High Elves refer to all of those who went to Valinor (possibly including descendants of them as well). The gray elves (or faeries) as described in D&D may seem more similar to the Vanyar of Tolkien since they are golden haired and considered noblest of the Elves. And in D&D the sea elves are actually aquatic elves who live underwater, in contrast to the Teleri of Tolkien who do not live underwater but by the coast and are shipwrights. In Tolkien Elves and Men are of the same stature, but in D&D elves are shorter and more slender. In Tolkien Elves are among the most powerful beings, often seeming far superior to mere Men, but in D&D although elves start out with more abilities and resistances and options (i.e. able to multi-class) humans have far more potential in all classes except thief. In Tolkien Elves are a major driving force of the legendary history of Middle Earth, but in the World of Greyhawk it is humanocentric with elves and other demihumans barely being mentioned implying they weren't nearly as relevant as the massive human events and migrations.
From EGG's point of view were the Olvenfolk mere window dressing? Tolkienesque? A joke (e. g. Fonkin Hoddypeak)? All of the above? What do you guys think? As an aside, when does the term demihuman first show up? It seems to imply small or lesser in a perjorative sense (e. g. demigod, demimonde, demitasse, etc... As my demi-aside, I enjoyed Italy but I'm glad to get back to full sized coffee mugs!).
