Florence and Hell

[GRWelsh]

We all know that Dante Alighieri is Florence's favorite hometown poet and that he wrote the DIVINE COMEDY and the first part especially, the INFERNO, had a great influence on popular culture as well as AD&D. I thought I'd start a topic on this and I'll add to it more when I'm not so tired... For now, I'll just say that I'm picking up some vibes from Florence that could be an inspiration for my AD&D campaign set in the World of Greyhawk.

[geneweigel]

I had mentioned Florence to Gary a few times in our discussion of Greyhawk architecture and he was aware of the styles.
(This was because he wanted a computer program that he could combine the building styles then to "art direct" what is in the comic panel but since that went down like the Titanic nothing ever came of it.) The talk was about fusing the architecture so instead of just a medieval Florence-look it would be with ancient aspects sticking out prominently.

I had also mentioned the Cosimo Medici statue in Florence and asked Gary if that would be something that Zagyg would have had within the walls of Greyhawk where he is mounted "warrior-like", at least for the optics, perhaps with some nearby "famous monster" statuary. So that was on the table to fit into the story but no specific detail was ironed out.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Statue_Cosimo_I_Giambologna_Piazza_della_Signoria_n02.jpg

[GRWelsh]

I think EGG may have imagined Greyhawk as a Renaissance era city, and this was further supported with the description of Yggsburgh -- assuming it is a parallel universe adjacent version. But I have always wondered if Zagyg was envisioned as a lord and patron of the city, or more of a reclusive wizard living outside the city a few miles away at his castle. I always wanted to ask EGG about that as well. Zagyg, or in his mortal guise as Zagig Yragerne, was descended of a Landgraf family who were local lords, so he was of noble blood. But, did his arcane studies and eccentricity alienate him from the urbane folk of Greyhawk? And/or was Greyhawk more of a small frontier town during his lifetime? That part of the history seemed pretty sparse. In any case, Greyhawk could be inferred to be Renaissance era judging by various details and hints, including pole arms, full and field plate, and various other technological references in the rule books as well as the fiction. I had the impression it was beyond the mere cathedral building Middle Ages of the 1000-1200 AD era, and edging into the early Renaissance from various details given at or hinted at. But also decidedly pre-gunpowder and cannon era. Greyhawk seems to be described like a rising and prospering merchant guild ruled city similar to Florence in that sense.

Something I noticed about Florence was that at least some of the ruling Medici family has the noble title of Grand Duke, which does appear in the World of Greyhawk, notably in the region of my current campaign which takes place in the Grand Duchy of Geoff! That seems be a palatine noble or sovereign title, rather than one as vassal to a king or another sovereign.

[geneweigel]

Here is Gary's approval of my "Cosimo Medici statue" in a Plaza idea so it can be official for Greyhawk purists (Its me with the single greater than symbol">" but its also Gary with double greater than symbol from priorly ">>":

Greetings!

> This might be a chance to do the sexy cover that he
> was suggesting, perhaps, how about all the Gehenna
> spawn are disguised as comely women and perhaps their
> "hounds" can disguised as some kind of pets like
> mastiffs?

Some "flash" is suggested by Darrell in the ripped clothing of the Princess,
but the horror of the attacking dreggals and their beasties needed plain and
awful for impact, methinks.

> Only revealing their beautiful forms to be inhuman
> spikey headed spider-like bodies (Dreggals) and their
> dog "companions" to be the scorpion bodied creatures
> just after they trap Carl Quadrapus and Ataleena.

> What do you think?

Hmmm...that might work at that.

>> Right. They came from the Citadel, likely by
>> underground passageway that
>> comes out:
>> 1. In the park so they get caught in the high plaza
>> east of there
>> 2. Exiting a building in the Low Q.
>> 3. Ditto in The Shacks--heading for a ship in the
>> river
>> 4. ditto in Hutsham ditto
>> Those seem the most logical...

> Park sounds good to me.

> That way you can feature the plaza. That would be
> visually stimulating and feature something that GH
> fans could eat.

I am following along...

> Perhaps grand statues on pedestals and fountains to
> shine a flashlight on some previously unknown city
> history. I'm assuming since Zagyg had the new city
> built he pencilled in what he wanted done with the
> plaza. Right?

Why not? could be some interesting constructions there too, as in Roman
parks, with a medieval touch--gazebo-like ones, fountain pools, and the
memorial statues you note.

> A Cosimo De Medici type statue on horseback of himself
> or his ancestor Ganz perhaps?

Heh.

> I can see depictions of heroes and gods fighting some
> classic D&D monsters and such.

Can't pack the scenes, but a few such background touches would be cool, yes
indeed.

>

I'm going to organize some GH dates and we can fill in
> the rest of the city history. Come up with some
> characters and see where they can fit. Give me a few
> days on that. Then after that I'll layout the plaza in
> a map with all this factored in.

Whoa, and that sounds absolutely great. If it's something in the line of
ilustration that can be sued in the work itself, maybe I can wrangle a fee
for you for same. Seems to be something that the fans will ba absolutely
delighted to see, a new and first look at a most interesting part of New
City, eh?

As an aside, Broken Halos will do only a single
panel or two for the murder
of the P&P, so I told Darrell to go with a slum
setting as found in the lq
or in Shacks or Hutsham.

The parks/palza material is still desirable, of
course, for with that in
hand they can eventually slip it into a book, and
the readers will love it:)

Now back to module creation for me:)

And to answer whether Zagyg was a recluse was that I went into Zagyg's background with Gary it was very slightly, so not to trample, and yes, he was involved publicly and then went into his work with the Castle was overlooking the then "city".

[GRWelsh]

One of the things I was reminded of when walking around Florence was the "Welcome to Hades" article by Bruce Heard in DRAGON Magazine #113. It had a wonderfully evocative illustration, I believe by Roger Raupp, showing a Roman style building and doorway with lintel. Those kind of doorways are everywhere here in Florence, and in Rome as well. Something distinctive is that many of them have elaborate knockers, such as with lion faces, or grotesque monsters. I've been snapping photos of them whenever I see them. I was thinking of doing a series of drawings or paintings of the doorways of Florence. I keep thinking of all of the Florentines Dante put in his circles of Hell...

[grodog]

Heather compiled a book of doors photos from our various trips to Europe, which I was thinking about recently when someone posted a cool pic on Facebook.

Now I need to pull it down from the shelf again

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

What a coincidence that Heather was drawn to the doors of Europe, which I also find fascinating. In particular, the giant sized doors keep drawing my attention. That, and the giant sized statues keep inspiring me for fantasy and D&D related musings... Overall, this trip has been very inspirational!

[GRWelsh]

In regards to analogies between Cosimo De' Medici and Zagyg, I'm going to stay away from that for now. Do citizens of Greyhawk City see Zagig Yragerne as Pater Patriae and have statues of him dedicated in plazas? I don't know, and my Wiki articles have started to pop up in Italian... It's an intriguing concept but I've been keeping my campaign on the periphery around Greyhawk City to stay away from the center on purpose, at least for now. To the PCs, Zagyg is simply a mythical figure they know little to nothing about. There is so much EGG-based lore and correspondence out there which I'd like to make use of, and I don't want to contradict anything Gygaxian when I can. But also, I'm more interested in the rustic settings where I can do my own thing and where big city help and complexity isn't a factor. The focus is on the players being the local movers and shakers, so that is why they were started out in the hinterlands.

Drawing the discussion back to what I was originally thinking about for this topic, could the Nine Hells, Hades and other planes have some ancient or classical architecture based on mortals of the past? After all, their souls have been going to these planes for thousands of years, and there has been interaction between the realms of devils, daemons, demons, etc. and mortals for millenia at this point. Much of those influences are now quite ancient.

[GRWelsh]

I know there was a module "INFERNO" (1980)by Judges Guild and more recently a Kickstarter titled "Inferno: Dante's Guide to Hell for 5e" (2023) by Acheron Games. Has anyone read either of these? Any opinions? The art on the latter looks impressive. There is no doubt Dante's INFERNO had a huge influence on AD&D's Nine Hells and devils but I've often thought an overly strict adaptation wouldn't be that desirable due to how allegorical things tend to be in the original poem... For example, Satan being trapped into his waist in ice in the lowest circle of Hell and having three heads with Judas, Brutus and Cassius in his three mouths since they represented the worst sin as Dante saw it: betrayal of one's master. Also, a lot of it is specific to historical figures from earth, or in particular, Florence. It's probably best to use it as inspiration without following it too slavishly since what is described in AD&D already has many mismatches.

Layout of Dante's INFERNO:

1st Circle: Limbo
2nd Circle (Lust)
3rd Circle (Gluttony) - Cerberus
4th Circle (Greed) - Plutus
5th Circle (Wrath) Styx - Phlegyas

Dis, surrounded by the Stygian marsh, contains all of the lower hells - Fallen angels, furies, Medusa

6th Circle (Heresy)
7th Circle (Violence)
- Ring 1 (Against Neighbors): Phlegethon the river of boiling blood and fire patrolled by centaurs led by Chiron and Pholus
- Ring 2 (Against Self): Wood of the Suicides with souls transformed into gnarled, thorny trees fed upon by harpies
- Ring 3 (Against God, Art, and Nature): A great Plain of Burning Sand scorched by great flakes of flame falling slowly down from the sky

Waterfall plunges over great cliff: poets ride the winged Geryon the 'Monster of Fraud' down to the next level

8th Circle (Fraud): Malebolge ("Evil Ditches)
- Bolgia 1 (Panderers and Seducers)
- Bolgia 2 (Flatterers)
- Bolgia 3 (Simoniacs aka those who sell ecclesiastical offices or favors)
- Bolgia 4 (Sorcerers)
- Bolgia 5 (Barrators, aka corrupt politicians)
- Bolgia 6 (Hypocrites)
- Bolgia 7 (Thieves)
- Bolgia 8 (Counsellors of Fraud)
- Bolgia 9 (Sowers of Discord)
- Bolgia 10 (Falsifiers)
9th Circle (Treachery): Cocytus
- Round 1: Caina
- Round 2: Antenora
- Round 3: Ptolomaea
- Round 4: Judecca

[geneweigel]

The Judges Guild INFERNO (1980) adventure is typical Judges Guild of that era with heavy detail on overall product but fine detail is low. Art by Kevin Siembieda later of Palladium/Rifts is okay but he got better in the 90's. Uses many D&D MM standby monsters but adds unique devils and archdevils.

The other "5E kickstarter" thing might be what I call "rpg porn" but I don't know looks awful busy.

[GRWelsh]

I'm guessing the purveyors of "RPG porn" end up in the bolgia with the panderers and seducers...

From the Wiki page: "In the group of panderers, the poets notice Venedico Caccianemico, a Bolognese Black Guelph who sold his own sister Ghisola to the Marchese d'Este."

They'll sell anything!

We got an illustration by Botticelli for that.

[geneweigel]

On the scale of Dante's Inferno, I think my family (and in-laws) have a living simulation of it... "Now if you look over here at this cousin, you'll even see a formerly unknown 8th deadly sin..."

Seriously, the Dragon Mag version of the inferno has that Forgotten Realms taint so its hard to separate the Gygax from the Greenwood to get an "inferno" which is what Gary intended.

There has to be a major audit of Gygax hell to remove all the distortion so I might do that for an upcoming blog post.

[GRWelsh]

The articles by Ed Greenwood in DRAGON Magazine in #75 and #76 titled "The Nine Hells" were among my favorite that Ed Greenwood ever wrote and I found the Easley illustrations to be very evocative. But I never took the time to closely examine the differences between what EGG established and what Greenwood added. My impression was that most of what EGG wrote about the devils in the AD&D MONSTER MANUAL (1977) was an expansion on the D&D Supplement EDRITCH WIZARDRY (1976) which introduced the demons. So, he was working out his scheme of the Outer Planes and his description of the devils was fleshing that out, and the allusions to the Nine Hells were inspired by but not following too closely to Dante's INFERNO. Then, there was an article in THE DRAGON Magazine #28 titled "The Politics of Hell" by Alexander Van Thorn (a pseudonym inspired by the OMEN movies?). Greenwood's articles seemed to run with that theme when he did his own version. By the time of MONSTER MANUAL II (1983) EGG seemed to adopt Greenwood's material for the new information on devils. Am I getting that right?

[geneweigel]

Its a mess with Dragon giving Greenwood early access to Gary's material and then sort of fleshing it out in a weird way. The confusion spread to the MM2 staff as they glitched and left out Gygax material.

[GRWelsh]

But didn't EGG have editorial oversight on what went into the MM2? He put his name on it, so I took that as tacit approval.

In any case, most of what EGG did with the planes seemed like the result of being loosely inspired by a wide variety of sources without being bound too closely to any of them: Milton's PARADISE LOST, Dante's INFERNO, medieval folklore and witchcraft, mythology, etc.

P. S. Although I enjoyed reading Ed Greenwood's articles I always struggled with how one would incorporate them into an AD&D campaign, especially one with predominantly good aligned characters. There was a lot of information on the politics of hell, and descriptions of the planes and how they were different from each other and what was on each one, demographically... But what would an adventure there be like? Why would good PCs go there and how would it not be suicidal? That aspect seemed to be missing.

[geneweigel]

Don't forget that he was saying there was a mixup with the bears to me in MM2. It should have been a progression that made the cave bear the "monster" bear instead of a polar bear being apex (They're considered cave bears in G2) but it was because, according to him, his notes that just weren't processed right.

A perfect example is DRAGON #75 (JUL 1983) has the Gary article FROM THE SORCERER'S SCROLL: "New denizens of devildom
A partial preview of Monster Manual II" which introduces us to abishai (lesser devils), Amon (Duke of Hell), Bael (Duke of Hell), bearded (lesser devils), Belial (Arch-Devil), Glasya (Princess of Hell), Hutijin (Duke of Hell), Mammon (Arch-Devil), Mephistopheles (Arch-Devil), Moloch (Arch-Devil), spined (lesser devils), Titivilus (Duke of Hell) and this ultimately forgotten pure Gygaxian "poor devil":

BITRU (Duke of Hell)
FREQUENCY: Unique (Very rare)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVE: 12”/18”
HIT DICE: 99 hit points
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: G, P
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type +6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
SIZE: L (9’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 199
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all
Bitru serves Dispater and leads 70 companies of erinyes in warfare. These devils are raised from the vast estates held in fief. Bitru employs a huge (+3 twohanded) sword in combat. These spell-like powers can be used by Bitru, one at a time, at will: animate dead, charm person, detect invisibility, detect magic, dispel magic, illusion, know alignment, mirror image, produce fire, read languages, read magic, suggestion, teleportation, wall of smoke (same
as wall of fog), and (fulfill another’s limited) wish. Once per day Bitru can employ a symbol of pain. He causes fear by pointing at any creature within a 60’ distance, saving throw vs. spell applicable. He can summon 1-3 erinyes with a 60% chance of success. Bitru regenerates 2 hit points per round.
Description: Bitru is very muscular. His skin is shining crimson, and his horns, hooves, and wings are lustrous black. Bitru’s visage is typically diabolical.

Also Greenwood based "devil staff" off Gygax's devil list (below) but also "Baftis" from the list in mag did not make it into MM2's list (Pit fiends in italics and Greenwood development in bold; Note also Glasya and Moloch are added to MM2 list butnot present here.):

Name In service of Command or position
Abigor ....... .Baalzebul ........ .60 companies malebranche
Adonides ..... .Mephistopheles. .. .Steward
Adramelech .... Asmodeus ........ .Chancellor
Agares ........ .Geryon .......... .31 companies bone devils
Alastor ....... .Asmodeus ........ .Executioner
Alocer ........ .Dispater ......... .36 companies erinyes
Amduscias .... .Tiamat .......... .29 companies abishai
Amon ........ .Geryon .......... .40 companies bone devils
Arioch ........ .Dispater ..........Avenger
Baalberith ..... Asmodeus ........ .Major Domo
Baalphegor (f) Mephistopheles. .. .Consort
Baalzephon .... Dispater ......... .Prime Minister
Bael .......... .Mammon ........ .66 companies barbed devils
Baftis (f) ...... .Baalzebul ........ .Consort
Balan ........ .Belial ........... .40 companies bearded devils
Barbas ........ .Mephistopheles. ... Chamberlain
Barbatos ....... Baalzebul ........ .Marshal
Name In service of Command or position
Bathym ....... .Belial ........... .30 companies barbed devils
Bel ........... .Dispater ......... .3 companies malebranche
Bele .......... .Mephistopheles. . . .Justiciar
Bensozia (f) .... Asmodeus ........ .Consort
Bethage. ...... .Moloch .......... .9 companies malebranche
Biffant ....... .Dispater ......... .Provost
Bifrons ....... .Mephistopheles ... .26 companies ice devils
Bileth ....... ..Moloch .......... .Tribune
Bitru ......... .Dispater ......... .70 companies erinyes
Buer ......... .Asmodeus. ....... .15 companies pit fiends
Bune ......... .Asmodeus ........ .30 companies malebranche
Caarcrinolaas .. Mammon ........ .36 companies barbed devils
Chamo ....... .Belial ........... .Legate
Cozbi (f) ...... .Geryon ........... Consort
Fecor ......... .Geryon .......... .8 companies malebranche
Focalor ....... .Mammon ........ .Seneschal
Furcas ........ .Dispater ......... .12 companies bearded devils

Name In service of Command or position
Gaziel . . . . . . . . .Belial . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 companies bone devils
Glwa (f) . . . . . .Mammon . . . . . . . . .Consort
Goap . . . . . . . . . .Tiamat . . . . . . . . . . . 3 companies erinyes
Gorson . . . . . . . .Geryon . . . . . . . . . . . Bailiff
Herobaal . . . . . .Moloch . . . . . . . . . . .16 companies bone devils
Herodias . . . . . . .Geryon . . . . . . . . . . .Magistrate
Hutijin . . . . . . . . Mephistopheles. . . . 2 companies pit fiends
Lilis (f) . . . . . . . .Dispater . . . . . . . . . . Consort
Lilith (f) . . . . . . . Moloch . . . . . . . . . . .Consort
Machalas . . . . . . Geryon . . . . . . . . . . . 11 companies barbed devils
Malphas . . . . . . . Tiamat . . . . . . . . . . . 40 companies abishai
Martinet . . . . . . . Asmodeus. . . . . . . . . Constable
Melchon . . . . . . . Mammon . . . . . . . . . 18 companies erinyes
Merodach . . . . . . Dispater . . . . . . . . . .21 companies barbed devils

Name In service of Command or position
Morax . . . . . . . . . Asmodeus . . . . . . . . . 9 companies pit fiends
Naome (f) . . . . . .Belial . . . . . . . . . . . .Consort
Neabaz . . . . . . . .Baalzebul . . . . . . . . .Herald
Nexroth . . . . . . .Mephistopheles. . . .16 companies malebranche
Phongor . . . . . . .Asmodeus. . . . . . . . . Inquisitor
Rimmon . . . . . . .Asmodeus . . . . . . . . . 5 companies ice devils
Tartach . . . . . . . .Moloch . . . . . . . . . . .Legate
Titivilus . . . . . . .Dispater . . . . . . . . . .Nuncio
Zaebos . . . . . . . . .Belial . . . . . . . . . . . .Lieutenant
Zagum . . . . . . . . Asmodeus . . . . . . . . .30 companies barbed devils
Zapan . . . . . . . . .Belial . . . . . . . . . . . .4 companies malebranche
Zepar . . . . . . . . . .Baalzebul . . . . . . . . .28 companies malebranche
Zimimar . . . . . . .Mammon . . . . . . . . .6 companies bone devils

Greenwood's actual contributions are bizarre and humanized chaotic loners mixed in with the processed Gygax material it lends an air of legitimacy.

Originally had these chaotic loners on Tiamat's first layer in DRAGON #75 (JUL 1983):

Nergal
Bist
Caim

then in DRAGON #91 (NO 1984) added more of them;

Armaros
Azazel
Cahor
Dagon
Duskur
Kochbiel
Malarea
Nisroch
Rumjal

then redoes the POLITICS OF HELL's "Astaroth" and makes him into a "super loner" called "Gargaroth".

[grodog]

Nov 13, 2023 14:08:42 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

Then, there was an article in THE DRAGON Magazine #28 titled "The Politics of Hell" by Alexander Van Thorn (a pseudonym inspired by the OMEN movies?).

Real person

Nov 14, 2023 1:56:23 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

But didn't EGG have editorial oversight on what went into the MM2? He put his name on it, so I took that as tacit approval.

My hunch is that Gary delegated these tasks, and the MM2 seems to have had more problems in addition to the devils stuff Gene mentions above: the goristro demon was dropped (appeared in Dragon 91), as was the Icthyosaurus (qv’d in the entry for Tennodontosaurus but its not in the MM or MM2), and the encounter tables weren’t updated in the book either (so I sometimes use the FF tables snd then just layer in some non-MM/FF monsters, but Gary thought those tables were pretty terrible too).

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

Adventure idea for the Nine Hells... influenced by my time spent in Florence:

"The Harrowing of Hell": Inspired by the story of Jesus going to hell to recover the souls who died previously but were not wicked and deserving of eternal torment. In game terms it might be that there are limits to beings from upper planes able to go into lower planes and so they may have to act through powerful mortal proxies. For example, there could be an NPC or NPCs who are still alive but ended up in the Nine Hells, perhaps imprisoned there and "they don't deserve it." The players may be sent there to free them. It could also tie in with recovering a holy artifact or relic, or a powerful magic weapon such as a Holy Avenger. A paladin knight may have gone to the Nine Hells in the past and fought a lost cause (per the "A Paladin in Hell" illustration in the PH) and died there... His soul elevated to the appropriate upper plane such as the Seven Heavens upon his demise, but his Holy Avenger and remains are still in the Nine Hells. It may not simply be a slugfest, either, but the characters must role play with the denizens of the Nine Hells and perhaps resist temptation and be discerning at attempts to deceive... Something else that inspired me for this were the bejeweled reliquaries housing the bones of saints and considered to be sacred items. What do you guys think?