Curing wounds with spells in combat

[GRWelsh]

I asked about this in another thread but you guys may have missed it. What are the rules for casting spells to cure wounds while in combat? If the rules are unclear, how do you handle it? My take on it has always been that it either can't be done, or is very difficult to do. We could look at cause light wounds for guidance in this, and that may be a precedent. Let's say a fighter is in the front rank and is in melee against a troll. In the second rank behind the fighter is a cleric who wants to cast cure light wounds on the fighter. Would the cleric have to roll to hit the fighter with his open hand from behind, or else the spell is spoiled?

[Scott]

I think a to hit roll is pretty common, and it works without getting too noodly with the mechanics. Since the target won't be actively dodging and blocking, you could maybe give a bonus.

[geneweigel]

Well known "el cheapo" DM Len Lakofka remarked on combat healing slightly in LEOMUND'S TINY HUT "Snagging Out Some Snags In The AD&D Spell Structure" in DRAGON # 33 (JAN 1980):

In this article I would like to touch upon various spells and their problems. Some of these I discussed with Gary Gygax as I helped edit the Dungeon Masters Guide (along with a score of others) and some are rulings that arose as my campaign progressed. Gary did not agree with me on all of the following, and thus my rulings are not to be considered “official” AD&D. Yet I feel strongly enough about them to offer them for your consideration.

SNIP

Cures
Only one cure can be effective per round; thus, multiply enchantments cannot all work at the same time. A figure cannot be cured of blindness or a disease and also gain back hit points all at once.

From SAGE ADVICE in DRAGON #48 (APR 1981) mentions immediate curing to one's self (Assuming in combat. Where else?):

Question: First, can Clerics or Paladins cure themselves by a Cure Light Wounds spell or by “laying hands” on themselves? Second, do Clerics or Magic-
Users get experience points for casting spells?
Answer: As stated in the description of the Paladin character class (Players Handbook, page 22), the Paladin can “lay hands” on his/her own person or any other character or creature. However, the rules of the AD&D™ game do not specify whether or not the Cure Light Wounds spell can be used on the body of the caster. However, the recently revised and expanded rulebook for the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game does specify that Cure Light Wounds “may be cast on the cleric’s own body” (D&D® Basic Rulebook, 1980 edition, page B15). This does not mean that the AD&D version of the spell must be handled in the same manner, because there is no direct relationship between the rules for the D&D Basic Game and the AD&D game. Ultimately, the decision is up to the AD&D Dungeon Master; it would certainly be logical and reasonable to allow the Cure spells to heal the spell caster, if the DM wished to allow such activity. Second, there is no provision in the AD&D rules for awarding experience points for the simple casting of spells. There are, however, many unspecified factors which the DM may take into consideration when determining how many points a character has gained. In a particular campaign, it might be quite appropriate for the DM to award experience points for the successful casting of any spell, or of certain spells. (For instance, just “getting off” a spell in the manner it was intended might be a noteworthy accomplishment against an opponent with a high degree of magic resistance, and such an accomplishment might indeed be deserving of an experience point bonus.) As with so many other questions, the answer lies in the preference of the DM and the conditions present in his/her campaign.

From WG4 THE FORGOTTEN TEMPLE OF THARIZDUN (1982) has actual curing in action:

This group will take two turns to prepare and come into battle unless advanced warning is given or an attack is expected. In the latter case, theywill be ready and appear in but 5 rounds, actually prior to the second body of troops lead by the sub-chief. In situations where strong opponents are recognized, the shaman will cast his resist fire spells, first on himself, then on the chief. The shaman will stay sheltered behind his guards whenever possible, especially until he has had to apply a cure light wounds spell to the chief. Thereafter, he is likely to venture forth to use darkness, blindness, and dispel magic as needed. The chant spell will usually be employed after the opening of battle, prior to his engaging in melee.

From my personal gameplay, curing (or causing) an enemy needs a hit for sure. Unless it was real chaos then I just let the cures come.

[geneweigel]

I forgot one from the PLAYERS HANDBOOK (1978):

Spell Combat:
Unless combat is spell versus spell, many such attacks will happen near the end of a melee round. This is because the spell requires a relatively lengthy time to cast, generally longer os spell level increases, so high level spells may take over a full melee round to cast. Furthermore, if the spell caster is struck, grabbed, or mogicolly attacked (and fails to make the requisite saving throw - explained later), the spell will be spoiled and fail. Spell combat includes cleric and magic-user, as well as monster oriented spells. Curative spells are handled likewise.

[GRWelsh]

There are some other passages in the rules that describe how if a character is casting a spell, particularly with material and somatic components, he can't do anything else other than cast the spell. If the casting time has a fairly long duration, such as a few segments or longer, the implication is that for part of (or even all of) the round the character cannot defend himself, dodge attacks, take cover, back away from an opponent, etc. So, the spell caster wouldn't have a dexerity bonus, shield bonus, and may even be subject to opponents getting a bonus to hit him since he's prone/unmoving (i.e. just standing there waving his arms around holding spell components while uttering magical words). Also, there are passages describing how when someone is in melee they aren't simply making one attack and defending against one attack -- they are making feints, dodging, ducking and moving around a lot. So, this is what I had in mind when I was bringing up this topic. It shouldn't be easy to touch someone in melee when they are trying to avoid being touched. It also shouldn't be easy to cast a spell while in melee or close proximity to a melee or even when under threat of missile fire.

[Scott]

In most cases it should not be possible. The fight in the tomb in Moria in Fellowship of the Ring is a good example of what a D&D melee would be like. Good luck casting a cure spell on Aragorn in the middle of that mess.

[GRWelsh]

This brings up something else which is when a spell goes off in the round relative to other actions such as melee and missile fire. By the book rules, how is this supposed to work? Let's say a spell takes 5 segments to cast. Does all melee and missile fire get resolved first, regardless of who wins initiative, and then spells go off according to casting time? Does winning or losing initiative affect casting times at all?

For the most part I've been resolving things very simply with group initiative, and all actions on one side including spells going off, and then all actions on the other side going off. That's probably fine for spells that take 1 segment to cast. But that doesn't seem correct when you get into longer casting times.

[geneweigel]

Here is some stuff to chew on:

Gary on scrolls in combat:

Sunday, 20th February, 2005, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by BOZ
potions and scrolls, my man, potions and scrolls. and pre-cast spells are nice, too. i'm sure every DM goes through this experience after a time...

Col_Pladoh
Quote:
Right, Boz!
The propblem with the potion is getting it out and quaffing it off takes two rounds at least, and the same for getting and reading a scroll. The good
old wand and worn magic items are much faster to use, multi-shot/use, so the temptation is always there to have them.
Obmi the Dwarf had his boots of Speed and Dwarven Throwing Hammer (plus whatever defensive items I decided he needed for an encounter,
protection and absorption) and believe me I made sure he had logical means of evading pursuit
Cheers,
Gary

Gary on touch:

Post by Col_Pladoh » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:52 am

DMPrata wrote:
Gary, in your AD&D® games, do you permit spell casters multiple attempts to deliver touch spells? For example, if an MU casts shocking grasp and fails to hit his opponent, can he continue making attack rolls each round thereafter until successful? (The corellary to this, of course, is a high-level cleric casting a powerful reversed spell like harm. Multiple attack rolls in this case could be hugely unbalancing.)

Short answer: No. Blow the attempt to touch, blow the spell, as the caster must be launching its intended effect as the attempt to touch the subject is made.

Cheers,
Gary

Gary on friendly casting:

by Col_Pladoh » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:17 am

Handy Haversack wrote:
Hi Gary,

Sorry to do this, but there is another tempest in a teacup on the 1e AD&D forum, and we finally decided we might bother you about it.

Okay, I'll comment:)

In your games or in your original thoughts behind the rules, is it possible for a PC to forego making a saving throw. Especially when spells are used by his allies. For example, both enlarge and levitate call for a save to negate the effects, but both of these spells can also usefully be used intraparty for combat advantage. I know that a lot of spells specify that an unwilling recipient must make a save; should this be extrapolated to all spells?

Indeed, the rule should be extrapolated to allow a willing recipient to be effected by a spell sans any saving throw. the save for one unwiling represents their active attejmkpts to avoid being affected.

As another wrinkle: what if a PC did not know that a potentially friendly spell is coming. Say an MU sees somehting bearing down on her fighter friend and tries to levitate that fighter out of harm's way. Should the fighter be forced to make a save since he does not know the origin of the magic?
There's a whole other issue about whether magic resistance can be intentionally lowered, but we'll stick to this for now.
Thanks a lot.
HH

I would say that the PC unaware of the origination of a spell aimed at him would have a saving throw apply, as that individual would not be willing it to work on him.

Cheers,
Gary

[Scott]

Sept 15, 2023 8:04:50 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

This brings up something else which is when a spell goes off in the round relative to other actions such as melee and missile fire. By the book rules, how is this supposed to work? Let's say a spell takes 5 segments to cast. Does all melee and missile fire get resolved first, regardless of who wins initiative, and then spells go off according to casting time? Does winning or losing initiative affect casting times at all?

For the most part I've been resolving things very simply with group initiative, and all actions on one side including spells going off, and then all actions on the other side going off. That's probably fine for spells that take 1 segment to cast. But that doesn't seem correct when you get into longer casting times.

That’s something you will have to make a call on and then stick with it. There are multiple conflicting procedures detailed in the DMG.
I use low initiative wins and spells are your initiative result plus casting time.

[GRWelsh]

Thanks Scott. So, the way you do it, is the number rolled on the d6 the segment of the round that side acts on? For example if the party has a magic-user trying to cast magic-missile and wins initiative with a 1, the magic-user goes on a 2. And if the enemies rolled a 2 for initiative, what would happen? Is the magic-user's spell going off at the same time as the enemies' melee and missile attacks?

[GRWelsh]

Thanks Gene. I'm glad EGG had a similar ruling about potions that I've been using. I've often wondered how anyone could possibly drink something while in melee, but also it depends on quantity of fluid and size/accessibility of the container. If you have to drink the equivalent of a bottle of Gatorade, there's no way you could drink that while fighting someone. If it's only a shot of whiskey equivalent you could try but I'd think you'd still be distracted from the fight, at least to some extent. In my campaign, I let my player characters attempt to drink potions while in combat, but I told them if they lost initiative and they were hit the potion could be smashed or knocked out of their hand before they could drink it and they'd lose their action for the round. It turns out my ruling was more lax than EGG's would have been... But my players did specify they had the potions out and ready in that situation, so I allowed the attempt.

[Scott]

Sept 15, 2023 12:21:50 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

Thanks Scott. So, the way you do it, is the number rolled on the d6 the segment of the round that side acts on? For example if the party has a magic-user trying to cast magic-missile and wins initiative with a 1, the magic-user goes on a 2. And if the enemies rolled a 2 for initiative, what would happen? Is the magic-user's spell going off at the same time as the enemies' melee and missile attacks?

I would treat the actions as simultaneous. The attacker would get his attack and whatever the spell effect is would happen at the same time.

[Scott]

I don't usually pin it down to the segment matches the die roll for attacks. Just 'if the initiative result is lower than the opponents initiative + casting time, the attack comes first.

[grodog]

Sept 14, 2023 13:30:21 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

There are some other passages in the rules that describe how if a character is casting a spell, particularly with material and somatic components, he can't do anything else other than cast the spell. If the casting time has a fairly long duration, such as a few segments or longer, the implication is that for part of (or even all of) the round the character cannot defend himself, dodge attacks, take cover, back away from an opponent, etc. So, the spell caster wouldn't have a dexerity bonus, shield bonus, and may even be subject to opponents getting a bonus to hit him since he's prone/unmoving (i.e. just standing there waving his arms around holding spell components while uttering magical words).

Yes, this is called out explicitly in the DMG:
- no DEX bonus to AC (page 65, point 4)
- based on p. 65's text, you could argue that the +4 motionless bonus on page 70 applies to casters in melee, but seems pretty harsh on top of losing a DEX bonus already....

Allan.

[maximus]

I've never used to hit rolls, just assuming the person needing the healing was a willing recipient. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Oh well...

[GRWelsh]

I’m only talking about healing in combat when people are moving around, ducking, trying to avoid being hit, etc. I was thinking casting spells to cure wounds on allies or oneself could be difficult or uncertain in the heat of the moment.