|
Post by Scott on Nov 15, 2016 22:21:16 GMT -5
Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here. First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together into the confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released. I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 15, 2016 22:38:15 GMT -5
Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here. First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together intothe confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released. I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone. So do you consider initiative the most incomplete 1E rule system unaddressed by later works such as UA, or what other major incomplete 1E rule systems are of the same order of magnitude as initiative?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 15, 2016 23:20:26 GMT -5
Its as simple as rolling two dice or flipping a card everything else takes a human judge with no computer. Thats why I don't use skills its too robotic.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Nov 16, 2016 10:53:16 GMT -5
Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here. First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together intothe confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released. I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone. So do you consider initiative the most incomplete 1E rule system unaddressed by later works such as UA, or what other major incomplete 1E rule systems are of the same order of magnitude as initiative? Nothing else stands out like this. Complete surprise is a concept that pops up, but it's never really explained. Monks chance of surprise is based on percentage chances, but how does that work with the pip = a surprise segment basis. Different types of dice, but no thought on how they work when the opponent has special rules based on a different die type? Lots of winging it.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 17, 2016 8:55:54 GMT -5
I used to bring this up because I played both rangers and monks back in the 80's. The best way to handle it is to convert different surprise dice to %. Each 16.66% can equate to a d6 pip surprise segment when that applies.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Nov 17, 2016 9:58:42 GMT -5
I've done that as well, but what bout this 7th level monk and his 22% chance of being surprised? Now I just wing it on an encounter by encounter basis. The snow leopard encounter, I gave the party a 1 d6 pip chance of not being surprised.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 10:00:42 GMT -5
There is a lot of worry but I've never played a D&D game without a calculator its the unwritten rule.
There was some AD&D guide to initiative a while ago on some website and it was broken. You roll the dice if the character forgets then thats their fault.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 10:07:35 GMT -5
I looked on DRAGONSFOOT for that initiative writeup but I can't find it. I haven't been there in a long while so my DF knowledge is shot.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 10:12:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Nov 17, 2016 10:16:09 GMT -5
I've read a few of those, and they're all working under the delusion that there was a single, coherent initiative system presented, but there never was.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 17, 2016 10:22:18 GMT -5
I've done that as well, but what bout this 7th level monk and his 22% chance of being surprised? Now I just wing it on an encounter by encounter basis. The snow leopard encounter, I gave the party a 1 d6 pip chance of not being surprised. Just convert everything into bonuses. The default chance to surprise is 33.33%. The monk only has a 22% chance of being surprised, so he basically has a 11.33% bonus against being surprised. I also think winging it is fine and is the DM's perogative in order to keep things flowing along... EGG often stated he did a lot of winging it himself, and didn't follow all of his own rules as they were written.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 10:27:31 GMT -5
The biggest flaw is lack of surprise cancellation being mentioned. Its like its automatically as if they were in a infinite backstab universe
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Nov 17, 2016 10:33:53 GMT -5
A nice summary of surprise appears in Dragon #133.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 17, 2016 10:56:08 GMT -5
A nice summary of surprise appears in Dragon #133. What does the dragon #133 surprise summary say - I don't have that Dragon issue?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 11:22:52 GMT -5
The DRAGON article is a chart of percentage conversions and how to figure it out on six-sided dice. Its not anything new but its official to the letter.
Table one is the conversion and table two is where the percent fits on the die:
Surprises on a 2/6 3/6 4/6 6/8 8/10 5/6 7/8 9/10 Surprised on a (33%) (50%) (67%) (75%) (80%) (83%) (88%) (90%) 1 in 20 (5%) 5% 22% 39% 47% 52% 55% 60% 62% 1 in 12(8%) 8% 25% 42% 50% 55% 58% 63% 65% 1 in 10(10%) 10% 27% 44% 52% 57% 60% 65% 67% 1 in 8 (13%) 13% 30% 47% 55% 60% 63% 68% 70% 1 in 6 (17%) 17% 33% 50% 59% 64% 67% 72% 74% 2 in 6 (33%) 33% 50% 67% 75% 80% 83% 88% 90% Notes Monks use the 2-in-6 (33%) row. Subtract 1% if the monk is 2nd level or ((2% x (level - 2)) + 1) if 3rd level or greater. If the encountered creature is silent, add 17% (1 in 6) to the value in Table 1. If the encountered creature is invisible, add 17% (1 in 6) to the value in Table 1.
Table 2 Surprise Factors Surprise roll Surprise factor 1-17 1 18-33 2 34-50 3 51-67 4 68-83 5 84-00 6
The text:
Surprise! (DRAG #133 MAY 1988)
by Leigh L. Krehmeyer
Determining who gets the drop on whom Balin, the fearless svirfneblin, moved quietly down the corridor. Somewhere ahead lurked his foe, a drow elf. Balin carefully edged around a corner and was suddenly face-to-face with his foe. . . . Player 1: Okay, Balin surprises on 9 in 10. Is he surprised? Player 2: Hey, wait a minute! Ive got a drow elf whos only surprised on 1 in 8. How can Balin surprise my drow on 9 in 10? DM: Well, uh, um. . . ." With the expansion of player characters into new racial types and character classes with unusual surprise values, the timehonored method of determining surprise can quickly become a headache for many DMs. A scan of the Dungeon Masters Guide (pages 61-62) or the Players Handbook (pages 102-103) reveals what to do in those cases where both the surprised value (How often am I surprised?) and the surprising value (How often do I surprise the other guy?) can be expressed using a six-sided die. However helpful this discussion may be when a ranger encounters a wererat, it doesnt answer the question of what happens when you have an encounter between a drow elf and a svirfneblin. The solution lies in converting die rolls into decimal percentages. For example, a normal surprise roll is 2 in 6, or approximately 33%. The value for a party that is surprised on a 1 in 6 is approximately 17%. A reduction value of 17% is constant in all surprise conditions not using 1d6 rolls; the DMG (page 62) illustrates this by showing that a 5-in-6 chance to surprise is reduced to 4 in 6 when the party being surprised is normally surprised only on a 1 in 6 (4 in 6 = 67%, 3 in 6 = 50%; therefore, 67 - 17 = 50%). So, if the character who is surprised on a 1 in 6 has a constant reduction of 17%, then a character who is surprised on a 1 in 8 should have a constant reduction of 21%. If the svirfneblin surprises normally on a 9 in 10 (90%), then he would surprise the drow elf 90 - 21 = 69% of the time. For those who claim that this number is too low (after all, Unearthed Arcana does say that the deep gnomes surprise 90% of the time), counter with the position that the drow elf picks up 21% more clues (sounds, odors, that little prickly feeling on the back of your neck when someone is watching, etc.) than the average individual. For those who say it is too high (since drow are surprised only on a 1 in 8), repeat that a svirfneblin normally surprises 90% of the time and that the DMG (page 62) firmly states that a party surprised on a 1 in 6 has only an additional 17% (1 in 6) in their favor and not a 50% better chance." Table 1 lists a matrix of surprise conditions. Since monks (from either the Players Handbook or Oriental Adventures) lower their chances of being surprised for every level above 1st level, they should use the normal 2-in-6 line and subtract their surprise bonus from this value. Also, since the application of silence (as per the second-level cleric spell silence 15 radius or a magical item) or invisibility (by whatever means) adds an additional 1-in-6 chance of surprising each (as per the Players Handbook, page 103), characters using such powers should increase the values shown in Table 1 by 17% apiece. If the player rolls less than or equal to the listed percentage value, his character is surprised. If both or neither party is surprised, then the encounter progresses normally. However, if one of the parties is surprised, the number of surprise segments lost to this party must be determined. This is done by cross-referencing the same roll used to determine surprise for each party and its surprise factor using Table 2. The surprised party subtracts its factor from the surprising partys factor. Treat all negative results as zero. Consider the following example: Balin the svirfneblin encounters the drow elf. Balin is normally surprised on a 1 in 12. However, the drow, being an elf and not in metal armor, surprises on a 3 in 6. According to Table 1, the drow elf has only a 25% chance of surprising Balin. Likewise, the elf, who is normally surprised on a 1 in 8, has a 70% chance of being surprised by Balin. The drow rolls 15 and Balin rolls 37. This means that the drow is surprised. Checking Table 2, we find that a roll of 15 yields a surprise factor of 1 and a roll of 37 gives a surprise factor of 3. Therefore, the drow is surprised for 2 (3 - 1) segments. Of course, this result may be modified by the PCs dexterity reaction scores, as per page 11 of the Players Handbook. Changing surprise values from straight fractions of die rolls to percentages does cost a little in terms of complete accuracy. However, it also allows the DM to handle better those surprise conditions which cannot be translated into fractions of 1d6 without compromising game play. This enables a DM to tailor surprise conditions and encounters to the circumstances, and not fudge the surprise factors.
|
|
foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 476
|
Post by foster1941 on Nov 17, 2016 13:44:09 GMT -5
There's a passage in the DMG (in the Morale section, IIRC) where it outlines a complicated system with a big list of detailed modifiers and such, but then in a footnote says something to the effect of "you are encouraged to follow the above closely when starting out, but as you gain more experience you will eventually be able to substitute your own judgment for this system." I've always felt that note applied to almost everything in the book - it presents a bunch of detailed and complex rules and sub-systems to give the fledgling DM a feel for how things are supposed to work, the kinds of things should be considered as factors, how much granularity is appropriate, and so on, but the intent is always that once you've got the holistic idea and internalized the concepts and intuitively grasp the intended feel, that you're not supposed to even try to follow all of those rules exactly (and, in fact, in a lot of cases you can't even if you want to, because they're incomplete or contradictory as presented) and are supposed to make your own judgment calls based on what feels appropriate.
|
|
foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 476
|
Post by foster1941 on Nov 17, 2016 13:46:42 GMT -5
Here's the quote, from DMG p. 37:
(If you are certain of your DM ability, most of these factors should be apparent without actually checking them out, simply by empathizing with the character or group in question, and having them act accordingly. Until you are absolutely certain, however, it is urged that you use these tables.)
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Nov 17, 2016 14:12:48 GMT -5
Without that DMG quote in mind I did have an interaction with Gary along similar lines. I was talking about how I DM with the POV of the players but keep it separate and he nominally agreed with the idea. I think this applies to ruling. Ruling (without skills of course! ) how a player wins over a hostile "civ" type big NPC in a peaceful environ is something that is better with an experienced DM. I think that RPGers talk about the curve of learning an RPG but I think with AD&D there is no curve it just goes on infinitely. Why? Because its THE rpg. D&D the original game and Gygax's vision of it (AD&D) at its apex. There is always going to be people interested in the rules for RPGs but AD&D isn't a programmed keyboard its more like a guitar.
|
|