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Post by Scott on Oct 30, 2013 7:50:45 GMT -5
What level do you think everything should be fair game? Other than the total munchkin games of my youth, many of the top shelf items have never been a part of my games. So, at what level would it be appropriate for a M-U to win a staff of the magi, or a paladin to find a holy avenger?
I've placed a few big items, but they were either never found, or found by the wrong PCs (they couldn't use it and ended up selling it).
Gronan once related a story of a M-U he was running in Gary's campaign. He acquired a staff of power at 1st or 2nd level somehow. According to Gronan owning it was an adventure in itself since he became a target for other PC M-Us (who were usually higher level) that wanted to take it.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 30, 2013 8:59:01 GMT -5
I think your mention of a Gronan example is most likely the aim that I live by: A) Remember the DMG article on PLACEMENT OF MAGIC ITEMS (pages 92-93) about how moderation is chief and not over enforcement. This is a chief example: The sad fact is, however, that this was not done, so many campaigns are little more than a joke, something that better DMs jape at and ridicule - rightly so on the surface - because of the foolishness of player characters with astronomically high levels of experience and no real playing skill. These god-like characters boast and strut about with retinues of ultra-powerful servants and scores of mighty magic items, artifacts, relics adorning them as if they were Christmas trees decked out with tinsel and ornaments. Not only are such "Monty Haul" games a crashing bore for most participants, they are a headache for their DMs as well, for the rules of the game do not provide anything for such play - no reasonable opponents, no rewards, nothing! The creative DM can, of course, develop a game which extrapolates from the original to allow such play, but this is a monumental task to accomplish with even passable results, and those attempts I have seen have been uniformly dismal. B) I don't have problems with magic-use. I encourage it and the use of new magic. You can literally construct your own artifact in my campaign by the book. No shortcuts and you can't use sages (by the book). I do have problems with GMs who think that moderation means obliteration to a "simpler time" make the refereeing easier. That is, if someone is going to referee magic-use then they better be ready for it or let somebody else do it. For example, I had Excalibur being passed around the party given by the ghost of King Arthur and they gave it back of their own free will. Specifically, in regards to what level is appropriate for expensive non-artifacts? Let it ride. In regards to the cited example, there should be NPCs who want the items even moreso than the players. From my perspective as DM, I'm not talking over-sized Gollums and black riders but rather "illusory" personalities that are not what they seem either by direct magic or just an elaborate scam. I'm the king of that kind of loss. ( Geez, I should know, I got enough of that shit from relatives and in-laws!  ) I think if someone has created a campaign where magic items are so scarce that being "scammed in-game by the DM" is a direct affront then its time to start beefing up the dice rolls in the name of true moderation. That is, perhaps they should secretly roll twice until they've achieved an atmosphere that if someone has lost magic items then its treated round the table in a sportsman-like manner. On an aside, a big mess of magic being fired off all at once is never a problem for me. It is the game I'm playing and thats it but I do understand that its not easy. Who hasn't forgot some ongoing power and been like "AW SHIT!!!"? |
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 30, 2013 9:09:05 GMT -5
That's a tough question, as it seems to assume magic items are "placed" by the DM up until the players are a certain level, and then after that it is time to let it all hang out and go "totally random." And I suppose that makes a certain amount of sense. Going by that premise I'd say around 5th level and up is when the PC's should be able to potentially find anything in the DMG treasure chart.
There's a kind of integrity to going "totally random" starting even at level 1. But is it really feasible? I don't think even EGG did this. There are no top shelf magic items to be found in T1 or B2. And the advice in the DMG seems to be thoughtful placement by the DM, at least at the early levels.
So, I'll go with the 5th+ level range -- somewhere in that sweet spot of attaining mid-level, PC's can be adventuring into areas that might possibly have anything... deeper dungeon levels, lost cities, forgotten temples, etc.
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Post by Scott on Oct 30, 2013 11:55:11 GMT -5
I've moved away from random and place almost everything.
I'm not opposed to dishing out the magic items. I guess I worry about tilting the game too much in the PCs favor and keeping the PCs hungry.
But the reality is that most campaigns don't last that long, so if you want to include these epic items in your game, which I do, you should be dishing them out earlier.
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Post by Scott on Oct 30, 2013 11:57:25 GMT -5
My problem with the random methos is actually at the other side of the spectrum:
"After you search the defeated lich's chamber you discover 10,000 copper pieces and a potion of diminution".
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 30, 2013 13:53:59 GMT -5
In Junior High I knew a kid and he and his brother were our ideal of what "Monty Haul" games were. This kid had a gray elf fighter/magic-user/cleric who was over 100th level in each class. The elf's children and henchmen were also high level, though nowhere near as close. The elf ruled his own solar system, and had a fleet of starships. These brothers DMed for each other. The brother's character was an evil fighter with an artifact-like sword and killed Asmodeus to take over Hell. Shockingly over the top, but it always sounded like they had a great time.
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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 30, 2013 14:01:15 GMT -5
My problem with the random methos is actually at the other side of the spectrum: "After you search the defeated lich's chamber you discover 10,000 copper pieces and a potion of diminution". "I collect copper pennies..." the dying lich croaked. "I've spent centuries collecting them, and brewing diminution potions so I could shrink down and clean them properly..." |
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2013 11:01:23 GMT -5
yeah, that's going random. You won't have the money to pay your monthly expenses, and the monsters you can encounter using the DMG can get unwieldly, since every dungeon level will be an option.
Dungeon Level 10, beyond the door is a 10' square room with 160 kobolds, a vorpal sword and a staff of power.
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2013 11:02:52 GMT -5
The Monster and Treasure cards were much better. The gave specific levels were the monsters could be encountered, and a more intuative method for # encountered.
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