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Post by Scott on Jul 25, 2013 11:50:35 GMT -5
These things seem like a lot of DM interpretation is required. One attack and damage/attack listed, but the text goes on to describe 'exposed flesh' and eating through armor and stuff. How do you handle combat with them? Just attack and damage, or something more complicated using the info about rounds needed to eat through armor, etc?
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 25, 2013 14:25:33 GMT -5
Yeah its technicality with me. Depends on the situation. I think that I mentioned that I have Greater Gray Oozes in my campaign over the years and they usually cut through the usual blob situational damage.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 26, 2013 8:08:45 GMT -5
I like an interpretation where it doesn't do any damage until it eats through the armor. Players usually get more upset over the idea of losing magical armor than taking damage to their characters... That is what makes a monster like black pudding so scary!
"You can't eat your meat, unless you eat through the metal with your pudding!"
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Post by Scott on Jul 26, 2013 11:58:03 GMT -5
That's sort of the way it seems, but you would need to use some sort of grapple rule. Like once the pudding hits you, it's attached and it starts eating through your armor. Which maybe was the intent all along, it fits, but it wasn't spelled out very clearly.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 26, 2013 16:12:48 GMT -5
Every once in a while somebody forgets jellies ( i.e. mustard and ochre not "symbiotic"), oozes ( i.e. gray and crystal not "para-elemental"), puddings ( i.e. black/brown/grey/white and S4's "deadly" brown/dun/white variants) and slimes ( i.e. green and olive) are around and then it becomes a problem than just mere avoiding, running or warding it off with an element. I think, as bad as these are, still people get more upset with shit like "Zygom" where it rubs off and it gets you later. Heh, even crappy FF's "Yellow Musk Creeper" gets you right up front before you become a brain dead monster!
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Post by Scott on Jul 26, 2013 20:48:04 GMT -5
The problem with it having to eat through armor before it can damage is that a high level party is usually going to kill one of these things before it has a chance to cause any damage. I guess you could have any armor or weapon exposed to the pudding roll a save vs acid to see if it was damaged.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 27, 2013 23:32:56 GMT -5
Well its a matter of how abstract the DM is. I've seen it handled all sorts of ways.
I'd make it situation by situation of course.
In the case of direct close combat of black pudding against an armored opponent then I'd give the armor save on two consecutive hits because it would be at least one melee round of contact without question.
Otherwise this wouldn't come into play unless it was surprise segments then in spirit of the game I'd give armor saves for each segment because of negligence.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Aug 22, 2013 12:56:10 GMT -5
think I might do: You do take damage (unless you're in a sealed suit, a la S3), but the armor damage accrues as stated. You don't necessarily "die" , but you're still hurtin'--these critters are semi-fluid and can get through any little opening! ^__^
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Post by Scott on Aug 22, 2013 13:11:41 GMT -5
That brings up another question. Do hits from the thing damage the armor in any way, reduce its effectiveness or something?
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 22, 2013 15:55:39 GMT -5
Just a few succinct but slight and unwritten, carefully worded notices then a sudden useless stage would be in the spirit of the game, I believe. If the person does not recall the warnings and the others do, without some cheesy lip service, then stick to your guns about it... "ADVENTURER?!? THOU ARMOR DOTH BEQUEATH PERIL!!!"
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Aug 22, 2013 20:39:24 GMT -5
I would say that "enough" hits from a black pudding (DM call here) would certainly damage armor, as would the secretions of grey ooze and green slime (but NOT ochre jelly, which apparently secretes an enzyme which affects organic matter, but not stone or metal; as opposed to the acids secreted by another). Gaming with "scientist" types at Purdue back in the day, I was always having to justify things without simply resorting to "because it's magic"... Case in point: "So how come the gray ooze affects metal, but not wood and stone?" "Because (raised eyebrow) its acid is oxalic acid-based! So stick that in your pipe with your Halfling weed and smoke it!" ^__^
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 22, 2013 23:40:49 GMT -5
I just realized I meant to say "THINE". Ah, fuck it, its poetic ye olde grammar!
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 23, 2013 9:30:55 GMT -5
Gaming with "scientist" types at Purdue back in the day, I was always having to justify things without simply resorting to "because it's magic"... Yes, I forgot to say that I agree, GT. Its refreshing though after the game not during though. The same can be said about the about view that you mention "ITS MAGIC" etc. After the game they can write it off but during the game there should be some kind of problem solving involving effects.
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 24, 2013 20:12:00 GMT -5
I think this how I have always handled black puddings:
A black pudding is non-intelligent, and may target any nearby opponent not wielding a fire source. It will not target someone holding a torch or otherwise wielding open flames, and it can be driven off by fire. It may randomly select any nearby opponent, regardless of how they are armored. It is stupid, always hungry, slow moving and relentless.
For game purposes, non-metal armor and exposed flesh are the same, and if the black pudding hits a character in non-metal armor or who is unarmored, it just deals normal damage, and doesn't harm the non-metal armor.
Each round the black pudding hits counts as a round of eating through metal armor. If a black pudding targets someone with metal armor, then it will continue to try to attack that one each round, unless driven off by fire or other magical damage. If a black pudding targets someone in non-magical chainmail, it will deal damage to the chainmail that first round, and the chain mail will be useless and destroyed and "eaten through." If the target is in non-magical platemail, it will take two rounds, and each magical plus takes an additional round. Once the pudding eats through the armor, it will then deal damage normally to the character.
Black puddings aren't necessarily that easy to quickly destroy, even by a high level party. Physical blows do not harm them, but actually make them more dangerous, because each blows splits them up into smaller puddings that each do just as much damage. Weapons aren't corroded by the acid since they aren't targeted by the saliva attack, and are no threat to the pudding. Lightning and cold don't affect them, either.
If someone is in platemail, magical platemail or magical chainmail, the first hit by the black pudding is a "warning" -- the armor isn't destroyed but is smoking and hissing with acid from the saliva attack. If it is hit enough times to be eaten through, the armor is essentially full of holes and in tatters, after that, and considered unrepairable and destroyed.
The black pudding is, for the most part, only dangerous until the players figure out -- or remember -- that fire damage drives them off. Then, black puddings are fairly easy to deal with.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 25, 2013 1:15:58 GMT -5
Avsurprise attack from a black pudding might come in the form of an overbearing "hug", like various media blobs, where the one mouth rule would not apply. Calculate surface area of the overbeared defender roughly 2' x 6' for the pudding mouths. That's at least 12 bite attacks. Now that will keep them on their toes.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 25, 2013 9:12:33 GMT -5
Well keeping in mind the diameter for each 5' - 6' - 8' with -/+ maybe 2 or more bites
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 25, 2013 15:00:15 GMT -5
I like the overbearing with multiple bites idea.
One thing I always felt I should have done more as a DM was to customize the monsters more. Players should seldom know for sure what they are dealing with. The game is at its best when players are shitting their pants.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 25, 2013 22:54:22 GMT -5
They're not allowed to grapple and pummeling while possible (slimes and jellies can't be pummeled) seems pointless so what would be the likelihood of an overbear versus standard attack?
Only on a surprise perhaps?
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 26, 2013 12:32:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I think it would be something like a surprise attack when a person is right next to it, under it, doesn't see it, etc. You're right -- what seems to be missing from the blobs is the 'overbearing blob attack' where they completely envelop someone.
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Post by Scott on Aug 26, 2013 13:58:34 GMT -5
My idea was to make it a grappling attack. Give additional attacks each round or make damage automatic until the grapple is broken to simulate the enveloping of the victim. Make the grapple harder to break each round.
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