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Post by GRWelsh on Oct 11, 2012 9:06:39 GMT -5
I'm having deja vu. I think I may have discussed this once with EGG, myself, because I clearly remember the "Cuthbert as a saint of Rao" idea being regarded as plausible but I cannot remember who first suggested it. About 15 years ago, I started to read the Life of Cuthbert, by Bede, to try to draw inspiration for detailing a game background of the saint's mortal life, but I never finished that project beyond scratching out a few notes.
I don't see why Veluna has to be monotheistic -- various LG gods, saints and powers might be venerated there. What's the problem?
Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but I'm starting to agree with EGG that we get too bogged down in these details. When I used to ask him about this kind of stuff he would either be humorously flippant (and thus evasive) or get mildly annoyed like the time when he told me "don't be so tied to the system" after questioning his suggestion that Baphomet would be worshipped in the Horned Society -- I didn't think that was right because Baphomet is a demon and not a devil!
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 11, 2012 10:09:04 GMT -5
Heh, its the way it homogenized one god per town because Carl Sargent added no ideas but user-end stuff: Rumors abound that the Lord Protector of Rel Astra, Orax the Invulnerable, has made known that he has acquired a powerful artifact of Good, sacred to the Power Rao. He has offered this to the rulers of Veluna in trade for magical items more useful to the forces of Rel Astra. Veluna's Canon Hazen is desperate to have the artifact and is said [0 be looking for powerful adventurers to rel Astra and back.
DM Info: The Crook, a crooked stave, is a staff + 3 with a variety of special powers when wielded by a priest of Rao. Hazen wants a group of powerful, capable adventurers (only LG. LN. NG are acceptable) to take a sealed casket of magical items to Rei Astra, collect the Crook and return with it. The shipment includes a pair of magical swords and a few wands and staves, as the DM determines. Nothing formidable should be included, and items that carry charges are recommended so that PCs do not use them. This mission is important enough that Hazen's second· in-command, Patriarch Lemuel (a 13th·level priest of Rao) will accompany the PCs. Drax is happy to trade the Crook (he is lawful. after all) for the stated items but rumors of the deal creep out. Chaotic evil enemies of Veluna will not be pleased to see a mighty artifact of lawful good retrieved (Iuz is the obvious case). Oppor· tunistic bandits will try to steal the Crook. power· ful mages may wish to have it for trade. and many will covet the items the PCs carry to Rei Astra. The PCs have thousands of miles to travel and must protect their cargo to Rel Astra and get back safety. {Lemuel will use word of recall as soon as he gets the Crook. but enemies will not know this, and will still be hunting the PCs.} An entire top shelf adventure (ISLE OF APE) reduced to "WE PLAYED IT; THIS YOUR VERSION" and look at the way he treats the characters as completely bound by HYPERALIGNMENT Look at his weak user end treatment of Rao: Rao is the serene, detached god of reason, intellect, and peace. The Power does not act on the Prime Material directly, but he is known to have created several powerful magical artifacls which are highly potent against evil (notably the Crook of Rao). possibly with the aid of Boccob. Rao is always depicted as a dark-skinned, white-haired old man with bright. dark brown eyes and long, slender hands; he is smiling and serene. Rao's faith is one that does not appeal much to commonfolk: he has always had more followers among rulers, diplomats. sages, scholars, and philosophers. Clearly, his church is not exactly overpopulated at present. Those who seek to find powerful magic to aid the cause of good make him valuable offerings and meditate on Rao's Sacred texts. Services to Rao involve discussions of theology and group meditations. Rao's priests Rao's priests are mediators, and negotiators wise and quiet people. Most are male. Rao's High Patriarch in Greyhawk was instrumental in the diplomacy that ended the wars. The priesthood is very studious. but one motto is "there is a lime to think, and more rarely to act; but in that time, action is wisdom" These priests are not wholly pacifistic! Sargent homogenizes his symbol into a white heart on a blue background. THAT is the safest extraction you can get. I would make him at the very least a warrior because he is a god of specifically stated "peace" which means between men and demi-humans who are not evil. So this god should be portrayed with a lowered weapon as a "negotiating general" and not as a "non-virile victim" as above. These things have to have the Gygaxian type thinking or its not Greyhawk. If Rao is tied to Cuthbert it is because of the mace so I can see him in Veluna just not as Sargent depicts.
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Post by Scott on Oct 11, 2012 10:31:14 GMT -5
But I like minutiae. Just kicking around some ideas, trying to put some order to Gary's lack of concern for the minute details. The polytheistic approach probably works best. Veluna should have a strong Oeridian tie. Neither Rao or Cuthbert are Oeridian in origin. So they probably are not exclusive.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 11, 2012 10:31:46 GMT -5
heh, the funny thing is Sargent didn't even bother to read the description of the Crook as a small toy-like mace from "APE" is just how "official" this stuff was.
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Post by Scott on Oct 11, 2012 10:37:08 GMT -5
Yeah, he was bad. Very, very bad.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 11, 2012 10:44:41 GMT -5
But I like minutiae. Just kicking around some ideas, trying to put some order to Gary's lack of concern for the minute details. The polytheistic approach probably works best. Veluna should have a strong Oeridian tie. Neither Rao or Cuthbert are Oeridian in origin. So they probably are not exclusive. Its hard to figure out some things in Greyhawk like you've succesfully narrowed down what country something would be from in the real world but you fail to figure out what country represents it in Greyhawk... NEXT! The polytheistic approach has been neglected due to gameplay. One fixates on all the fantasy thats at the end of your nose when your a player with a bad DM. i've always made plenty of room for polytheism because I was never afraid of it and i like to create new things.I've had many real world-based titan/giant/elemental/monster figures be the enemies of the gods and not each other so much.
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Falconer
Enchanter
Knight Bachelor
AD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Posts: 330
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Post by Falconer on Oct 11, 2012 13:47:08 GMT -5
It seems like, in OD&D Gary just borrowed from literature and mythology and probably didn’t try to justify it in-world. In AD&D/WoG, he had to justify it in-world via cross-planar activity. Either way, you can’t just leave it without explanation. You can’t pretend St. Cuthbert of Veluna just isn’t the same at all as St. Cuthbert of Lindisfarne. Not trying to be preachy at all, just that’s curiously absent from this conversation. He’s obviously a “patron saint” allowing a crypto-medieval-Christian-feel to your cleric. You don’t have to address the Christian undertones — Gary obviously wanted to keep it vague — but neither can you do a treatment that blatantly excludes those undertones.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 11, 2012 15:15:56 GMT -5
The players of the old wargames were probably first treated to the special guest appearance of Cuthbert on some kind of Dark Ages battle and it became a fave from probable "vikings stealling his treasures" association. Alone the real Cuthbert is kind of stale or at least as stale as any other saint when considering for a wargame but in that context of "stolem relics during a raid" it makes it notable. At least notable enough for someone to answer the question of "who do you serve?" with: Why Saint Cuthbert! And the cleric class rubbing off on the deity's character as a super cleric.
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