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Post by Scott on Jul 11, 2012 7:01:08 GMT -5
I've been running some adventures in the East Mark, and I've been thinking about the project as a whole. Yggsburgh, Dark Chateau, the Upper Works, I really like the material. One major flaw is the set up for low level adventurers. The Upper Works and Dark Chateau are both filled with excellent low level adventure material, but their placement within the setting is bad. Travelling 20 or so miles at a time, being forced to camp in the wilderness with frequent wandering monster checks is killer for starting parties. When Gary was running his East Mark playtest group, he had the players roll up players in the 5th level range, and that's sort of the feel for the whole setting, with these two low level adventure settings placed in locations that should be almost impossible for low level PCs to adventure in without some fudging. The whole purpose of all this pre-dungeons work was to have a complete campaign setting for the PCs to interact with, but it kind of lacking in that aspect.
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Post by grodog on Jul 11, 2012 17:04:01 GMT -5
Does Yggsburgh have a small village in the Darlene map area? IIRC, there are a few smaller settlements and such in addition to the main city, so perhaps base the PCs closer to the dungeons?
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Post by Scott on Jul 12, 2012 6:54:20 GMT -5
There are numerous small settlements all over the map. Just not close to the dungeons or chateau. The nearest settlement is still about 15 miles away, and for about 10 of those miles the likelihood and frequency of wandering monsters is very high. On the Old Castle Track, for example, I think it calls for a random check once every mile. There would be about 10 checks from the time the party starts on the track until they reach either adventure location. Obviously you can change things. I've added a closer settlement and decreased the frequency of wandering monster checks. I'm just commenting on the material as published.
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Post by Scott on Jul 12, 2012 7:02:48 GMT -5
Actually, the distance from Yggsburgh to Castle Zagyg is just about 30 miles. So a starting party, who probably couldn't afford mounts, would make it to the ruins just in time to make camp for the day. The next morning the party would be able to enter the ruins, if they survived the 14 wandering monster checks made up to that point!
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Post by Scott on Jul 12, 2012 7:15:45 GMT -5
In the earliest drafts of Yggsburgh, Castle Zagyg was located on the highest of the Four Tors, about two or three miles away from town. Just like the original setup. It works better with a dungeon campaign like this. I don't know why they decided to change things. The Yggsburgh setup is more like Rob's El Raja Key, where the dungeon really wasn't meant to be an adventuring destination for starting characters. The starting characters main destinations were a nearby old, abondoned copper mine, and one other location I can't remember right now, maybe a smaller ruin.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 14, 2012 12:17:33 GMT -5
When I first saw the Darlene map for the Yggsburgh area, I got really excited. I thought it was going to be a region map around Greyhawk City, so that we would all FINALLY get to see the area where the early D&D play took place -- however with some names changed, and done up in a wonderfully colorful and artistic map by Darlene! That's all I really wanted. Instead, we got something new that both is and is not the original Castle Greyhawk. It seems to be the result of different creative directions, and unfortunately a plan to milk this into a product line of multiple books and/or boxed sets. I wouldn't be surprised if Rob's early intended participation contributed to a rearrangement of the geography, along with an intention for this to be something new. I don't mind the idea of designers doing something new and original, I just don't like the way Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg are in this of limbo state of "It's Greyhawk/It's not Greyhawk." It's not Greyhawk City and Greyhawk Castle and surrounding local environs but just with the names changed -- which in my opinion would have been perfect. I wonder if the plan to drag it out and spread it over eight box sets (or whatever it was going to be) is what spoiled it. In retrospect, it is heart-breaking that we came so close to getting the original Greyhawk material.
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Post by grodog on Jul 14, 2012 18:57:30 GMT -5
In the earliest drafts of Yggsburgh, Castle Zagyg was located on the highest of the Four Tors, about two or three miles away from town. Just like the original setup. It works better with a dungeon campaign like this. I don't know why they decided to change things. I agree, a closer location is definitely nicer. I wasn't aware that the design for Yggsburgh had changed so much during its writing. The Yggsburgh setup is more like Rob's El Raja Key, where the dungeon really wasn't meant to be an adventuring destination for starting characters. The starting characters main destinations were a nearby old, abondoned copper mine, and one other location I can't remember right now, maybe a smaller ruin. Do you mean in Kalibruhn, Scott, or in the earlier Yggsburgh drafts? I remember Rob and Gary recounting some stories about John Seibel and cohorts exploring a copper mine (filled with kobolds, IIRC?). Is that the location you're thinking of? When I first saw the Darlene map for the Yggsburgh area, I got really excited. I thought it was going to be a region map around Greyhawk City, so that we would all FINALLY get to see the area where the early D&D play took place -- however with some names changed, and done up in a wonderfully colorful and artistic map by Darlene! That's all I really wanted. Ditto! Instead, we got something new that both is and is not the original Castle Greyhawk. It seems to be the result of different creative directions, and unfortunately a plan to milk this into a product line of multiple books and/or boxed sets. I wouldn't be surprised if Rob's early intended participation contributed to a rearrangement of the geography, along with an intention for this to be something new. I can't speak about these earliest drafts of Yggsburgh materials, but Rob was definitely hoping to publish the original castle and dungeons, and was advocating for their inclusion rather than a "best of" type approach. I think the original proposal of 6-8 hardcovers was reduced to 3 boxed sets before Rob left the project, after Gary rejected his vision to include the original notes (like in Bottle City) as part of the products. I don't mind the idea of designers doing something new and original, I just don't like the way Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg are in this of limbo state of "It's Greyhawk/It's not Greyhawk." It's not Greyhawk City and Greyhawk Castle and surrounding local environs but just with the names changed -- which in my opinion would have been perfect. I agree. Being able to use Greyhawk/Dunfalcon and swap out names---as in the later New Infinities Gord novels---would have been ideal. I wonder if the plan to drag it out and spread it over eight box sets (or whatever it was going to be) is what spoiled it. In retrospect, it is heart-breaking that we came so close to getting the original Greyhawk material. I agree. Hopefully all the materials will eventually see the light of day, rather than just Rob's levels that he still has. |
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Post by Scott on Jul 14, 2012 19:42:49 GMT -5
Allan, I was referring to Kalibruhn.
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Post by grodog on Jul 15, 2012 9:19:17 GMT -5
Ah, the coincidence (?) of the copper mine threw me, then.
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Post by Scott on Jul 15, 2012 9:37:05 GMT -5
The other area was a temple. Here was a post from Rob where he explained it:
"No. I intentionally broke with that model by having the Castle not immediately available, making the namesake city, Kalibruhn, a destroyed, partially submerged city where they could travel to at mid to high levels and by making different adventure areas, smaller dungeons, etc available to players at first through discovery or by following up on legends/rumor. I drew a comprehensive map for the "Baronies", a regional for the Barony of Velsinhold, then a grouped map (zooming in) for its separate counties, a city map for the capital,and ostensibly two adventure areas--one being the Elkhin Copper Mines (abandoned parts) and the forsaken Temple of Reh-Pog, the Elemental God of Earth. These were the two main starting areas; and the initial players chose to center their activities with the temple. The nearest village was Harwaith, which I drew and keyed, as well. Note: The Barony of Veslinhold had strict laws against practicing magic in its territory, reflecting more of a witch-hunt attitude amongst its very superstitious population. This added another interesting dimension to the otherwise "open-magic" approach apparent in most games then."
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Post by grodog on Jul 15, 2012 16:41:46 GMT -5
Thanks  I really should go back and pull down the relevant content from the PPP yuku board before it vanishes one day.... |
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Post by Scott on Jul 16, 2012 12:35:57 GMT -5
That's a good idea, but that comes from Dragonsfoot.
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Post by grodog on Jul 16, 2012 20:17:31 GMT -5
That's a good idea, but that comes from Dragonsfoot. That too |
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Post by ariochelruin on Jul 20, 2012 20:45:11 GMT -5
Actually, the distance from Yggsburgh to Castle Zagyg is just about 30 miles. So a starting party, who probably couldn't afford mounts, would make it to the ruins just in time to make camp for the day. The next morning the party would be able to enter the ruins, if they survived the 14 wandering monster checks made up to that point! Looks like the PCs will have to spend some time clearing out the road between town and the dungeon. It will give them some xp and gold. Step 1: Setup a couple ambush places Step 2:  Step 3: Profit! |
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Post by Scott on Jul 20, 2012 20:48:01 GMT -5
That's another part of the problem. Random encounters tend to have very little treasure. They're just big resource drains. You couldn't make enough profit to cover living expenses.
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Post by amalric on Aug 6, 2012 9:05:48 GMT -5
When I first saw the Darlene map for the Yggsburgh area, I got really excited. I thought it was going to be a region map around Greyhawk City, so that we would all FINALLY get to see the area where the early D&D play took place -- however with some names changed, and done up in a wonderfully colorful and artistic map by Darlene! That's all I really wanted. Thirded? Fourthed?   Again, couldn't agree more. I think the original proposal of 6-8 hardcovers was reduced to 3 boxed sets before Rob left the project, after Gary rejected his vision to include the original notes (like in Bottle City) as part of the products. What might have been! I have one of PPP's editions of Bottle City, and I love it. Recollections of the old campaign help give it an atmosphere that can't be matched by newer materials, IMO. Maybe one day, then. But, to have waited this long, and come so close, only to be denied...it'll grate until that day comes. |
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 30, 2012 12:36:33 GMT -5
One you accept that its a tribute with a pinch of reminder it works.
It just seems to need too much work.
I still have it on the shelf:
The YGGSBURGH BOOK
THE ZAGYG BOX
THE FOLIO
THE KUNTZ ADVENTURE.
But they need gutting, revision and finally tangible appeal. I dislike the Darlene map on some level but it has nothing to do with the look. Maybe because the areas aren't based on anything from Gary or Rob.
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Post by Scott on Sept 30, 2012 12:48:30 GMT -5
I love the content taken piecemeal, but they way they put it all together doesn't work for me.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 30, 2012 13:48:32 GMT -5
I could not get anyone to give it a chance. In their view, according to them a while after it came out, they thought that I seemed like I was so close to it that i was willing to forgive too much.
I can't blame them the Bradley artwork throughout says everything about the designers: THEY DON'T CARE
It was an end to means for them. I find it hard to disseminate CASTLE ZAGYG from WORLD OF ERDE or GAXMOOR. Everything wrong about the GAXMOOR adventure is everything wrong with ZAGYG's adventure. Everything wrong about the WORLD OF ERDE setting is wrong with ZAGYG's setting.
Maybe it was Troll Lord's choosing of designers and artists that did it?
Remember me saying how I wanted to gut Rob Kuntz's DARK DRUIDS? Its the same feeling.
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