Expanding ToEE

[Falconer]

Some ideas on expanding The Temple of Elemental Evil (T1-4) into a proper Megadungeon.

The main issue is that a lot of the ideas for The Temple of Elemental Evil campaign were cannibalized to create the Giants/Drow tournament series. My initial thought was simply to re-incorporate them by placing The Hall of the Fire Giant King (G3) below The Temple of Elemental Evil as more levels. But then I had a more interesting thought, which was to combine the Elemental Nodes from the Temple of Elemental Evil with the levels from the Giants/Drow series as follows:

Earth Node = Steading of the Hill Giant Chief (G1)
Air Node = Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl (G2)
Fire Node = Hall of the Fire Giant King (G3)
Water Node = Shrine of the Kuo-Toa (D2)

The main exercise then becomes to create a proper cross-section of how all the levels relate. Some of them have to be pocket planes in order to work (Air Node/Frost Giants for sure), but others can become just regular levels. At the deepest levels, there can surely be a sort of mini-Underdark which would incorporate the Vault of the Drow (D3) and the Svirfneblin, but the distances and the feeling of an underground wilderness that is given in the D modules would not quite fit the megadungeon ethos.

Finally, the issue of the overall “plot” would have to be reconsidered. In essence, the plot of T1-4 would become but one “scenario” that might play itself out there. I mean in particular the Zuggtmoy plot. Zuggtmoy obviously replaced Lolth (who is prominent in T1, but vanishes from ToEE due to having been used in the D series), but since we are reintegrating, Lolth and her faction must be back with a vengeance. I would leave them both in, and Iuz too. Finally, the “finale” instead of Q1 ought to be the Elder Elemental God himself in all his Lovecraftian glory (as we have discussed many times).

Thoughts?

[Scott]

I meant to respond to your thread over at K&K, but it's been a busy week.
I think it sounds like it would work, and probably in a fun way. The problem is I've come to love the two series as they are, minus Q1. I've grown fond of Zuggy and her Temple. But I have spent a lot of time thinking about converting the Temple back to a Lolth and EEG related adventure.

My first thought is there is somewhat of a level gap between where the characters would be after exploring the Temple, minus the nodes, and the first G adventure. Taking away the experience the party would get in the nodes, I'd say you need 2 or 3 levels worth of material before the party could properly take on G1.
Lolth or Zuggtmoy, I'd say either, but not both; it just seems a bit too cluttered.
The EEG would be included, of course.

[Falconer]

That’s true, I hadn’t thought of that. My party when they were done with T1-4 was ready to tackle G1. Of course, they completed all of T1-4, so, as you say, they got the experience and magic items from the nodes and from Zuggtmoy. It was also a really large group at that time (I regularly had 11 players around that time!).

Anyway, the idea was just as a starting point. You’re right, there needs to be more material in there before they reach the nodes, then. Maybe split Level 3 into two full levels, expanding the main part a bit and expanding the Zuggtmoy section as well so that it is its own level. Basically excise Zuggtmoy from the plot, i.e. just make her and her fungus level an “encounter” rather than a “player”.

Frank obviously had no idea what he was doing with Level 4. As you know just from looking at the map it’s obviously a spider. So this is definitely a Lolth level and needs to be completely restocked.

For levels 5 and 6 I guess we could continue the theme and plug in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/Tsojconth, heh... Though as you say, at that point you might as well just go run the modules as written (i.e. as separate dungeons). Megadungeons are nice, but change of scenery and some wilderness adventuring is desired.

[Scott]

If you're going back to Lolth, you could bring in the drow and give them a level or two, a Vault in miniature.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Jun 16, 2010 16:01:40 GMT -5 Falconer said:

Some ideas on expanding The Temple of Elemental Evil (T1-4) into a proper Megadungeon.

The main issue is that a lot of the ideas for The Temple of Elemental Evil campaign were cannibalized to create the Giants/Drow tournament series. My initial thought was simply to re-incorporate them by placing The Hall of the Fire Giant King (G3) below The Temple of Elemental Evil as more levels. But then I had a more interesting thought, which was to combine the Elemental Nodes from the Temple of Elemental Evil with the levels from the Giants/Drow series as follows:

Earth Node = Steading of the Hill Giant Chief (G1)
Air Node = Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl (G2)
Fire Node = Hall of the Fire Giant King (G3)
Water Node = Shrine of the Kuo-Toa (D2)

The main exercise then becomes to create a proper cross-section of how all the levels relate. Some of them have to be pocket planes in order to work (Air Node/Frost Giants for sure), but others can become just regular levels. At the deepest levels, there can surely be a sort of mini-Underdark which would incorporate the Vault of the Drow (D3) and the Svirfneblin, but the distances and the feeling of an underground wilderness that is given in the D modules would not quite fit the megadungeon ethos.

Finally, the issue of the overall “plot” would have to be reconsidered. In essence, the plot of T1-4 would become but one “scenario” that might play itself out there. I mean in particular the Zuggtmoy plot. Zuggtmoy obviously replaced Lolth (who is prominent in T1, but vanishes from ToEE due to having been used in the D series), but since we are reintegrating, Lolth and her faction must be back with a vengeance. I would leave them both in, and Iuz too. Finally, the “finale” instead of Q1 ought to be the Elder Elemental God himself in all his Lovecraftian glory (as we have discussed many times).

Thoughts?

Falconer, your ideas above I intend to modify/expand upon and incorporate into the temple nodes:

Earth burrows node = G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief + D1 Descent Into the Depths of the Earth + ? = three parts coordinating with three sides to triangle

Water maze node = G2 The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl + D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa + ? + ? = four parts coordinating with four sides to square

Fire pits node = G3 The Hall of the Fire Giant King + D3 Vault of the Drow + ? + ? + ? + ? + ? + ? = eight parts coordinating with eight sides to lozenge

Air Cavern node = Singular Cloud Giant locale octal-arrayed to distant star where EEG is imprisoned?

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

For the air cavern node, I think I will make it a threefold octal array via the elemental planes:

(1) elemental planes: air, earth, water, fire, magma, ooze, smoke, ice

(2) elemental positive planes: mineral, radiance, lightning, steam, etc.

(3) elemental negative planes: dust, ash, vacuum, salt, etc.

Would it be possible to loose all three primordial EEGs along these arrays?

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

The singular cloud giant locale would be in the Barrier Peaks, and include S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Or maybe it would be better "as above, so below" structure, which means D4 would be that the PCs need to embark upon Lolth's Sunless Sea vessel to transport them to a huge "air cavern" with a fiery sun/star at the center of the Oerth, where the EEG is imprisoned?

Would the PC party need to travel across the Sunless Sea to connect underground with the Nyr Dyv, Lake of Unknown Depths, then down to the huge "air cavern" at the center of the Oerth?

I suppose G4 would still be a cloud giants locale above the Barrier Peaks?

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Maybe illithids and/or kraken are working to unlock the EEG from imprisonment via an eight-fold planar pathway, with four elemental paths "above" connected to the cloud giants's locale: mineral, radiance, lightning, and steam, and four elemental paths "below" connecting to a sunless sea locale: dust, ash, vacuum, salt?

When these pathways are all unlocked, a gate to Shadowland opens, and the PC party can travel via the plane of shadow to the air cavern located at the center of the Oerth?

Would Igwlf, Iuz, Lolth, and/or other factions all be active to yet contain the EEG within the prison, while illithid, kraken, and/or other factions are active there to release the EEG?

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Is it known for a fact that EEG originally had Lolth captive within the interdicted prison at the temple?

I was wondering if it is any possibility that the demon "hag/crone" Zuggtmoy replaced was actually "hag/crone" Igwlf {Cailleach}?

Would it make sense for Igwlf to be the demon captive in the temple? Why or why not?

That would leave Lolth free and able to be encountered via reworked temple elemental nodes....

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Feb 15, 2018 17:37:56 GMT -5 davegibsongreyhawkdm said:

Is it known for a fact that EEG originally had Lolth captive within the interdicted prison at the temple?

I was wondering if it is any possibility that the demon "hag/crone" Zuggtmoy replaced was actually "hag/crone" Igwlf {Cailleach}?

Would it make sense for Igwlf to be the demon captive in the temple? Why or why not?

That would leave Lolth free and able to be encountered via reworked temple elemental nodes....

Is it a "factious ruse" perpetrated by arch-Mage, EGG?

Zuggtmoy = Iggwlf = Zagyg = Zagig Yragerne?

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Feb 15, 2018 19:56:00 GMT -5 davegibsongreyhawkdm said:

Feb 15, 2018 17:37:56 GMT -5 davegibsongreyhawkdm said:

Is it known for a fact that EEG originally had Lolth captive within the interdicted prison at the temple?

I was wondering if it is any possibility that the demon "hag/crone" Zuggtmoy replaced was actually "hag/crone" Igwlf {Cailleach}?

Would it make sense for Igwlf to be the demon captive in the temple? Why or why not?

That would leave Lolth free and able to be encountered via reworked temple elemental nodes....

Is it a "factious ruse" perpetrated by arch-Mage, EGG?

Zuggtmoy = Iggwlf = Zagyg = Zagig Yragerne?

Is it editorial comment parallelling EGG's personal corporate experiences:

(1) EGG is initially a chaotically zany, innovate, good-willed arch-Mage controlling his own destiny and that of his AD&D creation = Zagig Yragerne

(2) EGG gates in demons to work with him during phenomenal growth period of AD&D, he is starting to lose control and go to the dark side = Zagyg

(3) EGG's fighting back {wolf-like} versus effeminate-minded T$R = Graz'zt, control is lost and the arch-Mage vanishes to realms unknown = Iggwlf

(4) EGG reduced to a plodding bulbous fungoid = Zuggtmoy trapped in darkness within the interdicted prison by Furyondy = effeminate T$R's wealthy Knights enabled by the Scarlet Brotherhood {assassins ruled by a traitorous secret cabal of bigoted Nazis}?

(5) Released from imprisonment by RJK, EGG = Zuggtmoy {though a plodding fungoid, yet a mighty 22nd level arch-Mage!} leaves to unknown realms, plotting vengeance...

So a goal of the TOEE adventure would be inverted tiered full restoration of Zagig Yragerne? What role would Boccob play in this scenario?