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Jun 8, 2009 12:04:50 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 8, 2009 12:04:50 GMT -5
Tenser is 21st level, Otto is 18th. Not a big difference. In the Dragon article that details the forces that some of the personages command, it states that Mordenkainen took his cavalry to aid a (possibly evil) associate. That was a reference to Robilar. Tenser's big advantage is that he is coming from a stable, established position. I don't think it would escalate though, since I don't see anybody trying to mess with Robilar.
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Wizard
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Jun 8, 2009 20:30:46 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 8, 2009 20:30:46 GMT -5
Here's another scenario: As long as Robilar didn't actually invade Horned Society territory, what's to stop those two (essentially) lawful evil forces from having an uneasy truce without combat?
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Jun 8, 2009 20:33:48 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 8, 2009 20:33:48 GMT -5
As to the aid of Mordenkainen to Robilar, it doesn't seem like it ever got there, since Robilar was ousted. And I think that event occured before the whole "Circle of Eight fighting for Neutrality and Balance" mindset...
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Jun 8, 2009 20:41:06 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 8, 2009 20:41:06 GMT -5
I've thought about that, but it brings to attention the discrepancy that exists between the declared alignments of several of the Greyhawk characters, and their actions. Erac's Cousin is Lawful Evil too, but the all seem to act more chaotic. Gary even mentioned that Robilar's forces were suspect by the minions of Hell due to their chaotic tendencies.
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Wizard
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Jun 8, 2009 20:48:02 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 8, 2009 20:48:02 GMT -5
Yeah; Rob doen't really like "alignment", but I have to contend that it is a vital mechanic for AD&D in the 1E sense of the word. My PC, Kato, is definitely Chaotic, but he started out Good, then performed some definite Evil, and now resides firmly in the CN camp!
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Jun 9, 2009 14:32:18 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jun 9, 2009 14:32:18 GMT -5
Alignment is always a gray area, and unless you are the player or his DM, I wouldn't presume to judge someone's alignment based on their known actions. So when talking about someone else's character, I think it's most helpful to think of alignment as a formal declaration of which "side" he's on in the great cosmic struggle. Hence "Erac's Cousin...now serves Hell with will and enthusiasm" and the fact of who he serves is the key point here, not how he behaves while doing so.
On that note, I am still intrigued by the possibility of equating Erac's Cousin ("The Unnamed") with one of the leading Hierarchs ("true names unknown"). The #2 man is said to be "a magic-user above 12th level," which fits. And, of course, "Deviltry is the religion of the Society." (The novel changes this to Hades for the purpose of its story, but I would ignore that). I know Gary said that wasn't the intent, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It's already established by TD37 that he leads armies, so he might as well have a political purpose in the developed World of Greyhawk rather than just be an artifact of the old Castle Greyhawk Campaign.
Perhaps Iuz retakes Molag and slays the 18th level EHP, leaving the Horned Society as a more roguelike group with Erac's Cousin as its leader. Then you have the best of both worlds.
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Jun 9, 2009 14:36:50 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 9, 2009 14:36:50 GMT -5
That idea has been tossed around before, but in this case, I'd prefer to keep Erac's Cousin true to character, a psychopathic loner, especially since I talk to Ernie about using him in the future.
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Jun 9, 2009 14:51:50 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jun 9, 2009 14:51:50 GMT -5
I know you like the loner angle, but how do you reconcile his army of 450 men and humanoids per TD37?
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Jun 9, 2009 15:15:21 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 9, 2009 15:15:21 GMT -5
I haven't tried to cross that bridge yet.
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Jun 9, 2009 17:49:34 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 9, 2009 17:49:34 GMT -5
It could be that he had said army earlier, but abandoned or released it later...
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Jun 9, 2009 17:53:36 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 9, 2009 17:53:36 GMT -5
On the Tenser vs. Otto angle; it isn't just "level", it's also organization. Mordenkainen or Bigby (I believe) whipped Otto early on "mano o mano"; but Tenser is his own man and extremely well-informed and organized. Otto is, in the final analysis, still servile (to Robilar). Both sides have their own dragons, so...
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Jun 9, 2009 18:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 9, 2009 18:22:21 GMT -5
It could be that he had said army earlier, but abandoned or released it later... Or possibly the opposite. After the good powers 'failed' him in his time of need, losing his prized swords, enduring the tender mercies of a demon prince, etc. he torched his old abode, and spent some as a wandering psycho, he settled down, established his stronghold, and started plotting and building an army.
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Jul 3, 2009 10:01:20 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jul 3, 2009 10:01:20 GMT -5
So I found an old post where Gary said that he purposefully didn't advance the Greyhawk timeline past the Dragon articles (although he did have a couple more of those he had intended to get out... Furyondy and Celene being one set...), as he wanted to freeze the milieu for individual DM's to advance it in their own ways. By this reasoning, yours is certainly as true to Gary's wishes as can be hoped for! ^__^
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Jul 4, 2009 15:22:30 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jul 4, 2009 15:22:30 GMT -5
So I found an old post where Gary said that he purposefully didn't advance the Greyhawk timeline past the Dragon articles (although he did have a couple more of those he had intended to get out... Furyondy and Celene being one set...), as he wanted to freeze the milieu for individual DM's to advance it in their own ways. By this reasoning, yours is certainly as true to Gary's wishes as can be hoped for! ^__^ The timeline advancement is not much of a surprise, Gregg, but that Gary had some more articles in queue that didn't get published sounds interesting!: do you have the relevant post details handy?
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Jul 5, 2009 11:59:31 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jul 5, 2009 11:59:31 GMT -5
From his intro to Dragon #57 edition to The World of Greyhawk Sorceror's Scroll: "For those of you who wish to plan ahead, Rob Kuntz will cover the action surrounding the Sea Barons, Spindrift Isles, See of Medegia, Almor and the Kingdom of Nyrond. Meanwhile, I’ll skip to the Lordship of the Isles, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Hepmonaland, the Olman Islands, and on into the Amedio Jungle. Next will be the Pomarj, Wild Coast, Celene, and the three Ulek states, Then comes Greyhawk, Urnst Duchy and County, Furyondy, Dyvers and the Nyr Dyv, Verbobonc, and the Temple of Elemental Evil. A discussion of Veluna, Highfolk, Bissel, Ket, Perrenland, and the Tiger Nomads will make a very mixed bag indeed for a future column. The Valley of the Mage, Geoff, Gran March, Sterich, Keoland, the Yeomanry, and the Sea Princes covers the southwest nicely. The last major portion discussed will be the Caliphate of Ekbir, Tusmit, Zeif, the Paynims, UII, and the Dry Steppes."
Gary always stated that he had "tons" of stuff lying dormant on floppy discs--including the never-published classes of Savant, Mystic, Jester, and Mountebank; as well as various monsters and info on the planes. He never let them out due to the legal constraints of his departure from TSR, but if Gail were to look around the files (maybe she is... ), who knows what all she would find? As to Gary's wish to not advance the timeline beyond 578 and let the individual DM's figure it out, that was posted on Dragonsfoot or ENWorld, and Scott or Gene could probably track that down easier than I can... ^__^
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Jul 9, 2009 17:14:24 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jul 9, 2009 17:14:24 GMT -5
Thanks GT!
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