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Post by Scott on Jun 2, 2009 6:58:18 GMT -5
In some cases, I think you have to remember that the books and the game setting don’t always mesh, but for what it’s worth… It seems like he is still referring to the Battle of Emridy Meadows and the original binding of Zuggtmoy, but it also could be more general than that and it could refer to those responsible for all the troubles he’s bitching about. Timeline trouble causes some confusion here, since the whole issue of how Iuz was involved with the ToEE while he should have been imprisoned is not addressed. So what was the state of the Temple when he was imprisoned vs. when he was released? I think it’s kind of a moot issue. The important pieces are that Iuz has lost interest in the ToEE, but he is interested in releasing Zuggtmoy, since she would make a powerful, beholden ally. Tying it more to the setting info, and it’s possible Iuz may not know the location of the soul object that is supposedly hidden in Zuggtmoy’s Abyssal domain, and he wants some piece of mind in that regard.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 2, 2009 9:02:09 GMT -5
Theres a module and novel aspect that needs to be considered.
How does one make a novel? In particular Gary Gygax?
How did he design adventures? Especially with an obvious co-designer?
He said to tell a story he would take liberties but there has to be some solidity to all the stuff mentioned there.
Plus what about "real time/real world" variables? In the fan favorite apex of Lolth did Gary just lose interest in his own creation (EEG) that the market wasn't shouting about? 1984 thats all I heard was Lolth everything on the street. He had to know that as feedback.
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Post by Scott on Jun 2, 2009 9:24:41 GMT -5
He did lose interest in the EEG in the GD series after Q1 was OKed. I never could understand why that wasn’t more of an issue. It was almost like everybody forgot that the EEG-worshipping drow faction were behind the whole giant thing. Gary still planned on including EEG material in the ToEE. That material didn’t make it to Frank though. When I asked Gary about things he wished he could revisit, the ending for the D series and the expanded material from the ToEE were the two items he mentioned. Just before he passed away we started talking about doing his ideas for ‘D4’ after I finished the CZ module I was working on.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 2, 2009 23:14:18 GMT -5
I always thought Jolene may have put on some weight while Thrommel was in stasis, and if rescued, he might have had some second thoughts about the whole 'Velondy' thing...
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jun 3, 2009 18:00:36 GMT -5
...or maybe he likes his sword more than girls! (what's the first thing he does when he awakens... ask for news of Jolene or Veluna/Furyondy? Nope. ) ;D
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Post by dakotastrider on Feb 20, 2015 1:24:35 GMT -5
Just recently found these boards, and I have been enjoying reading this discussion, and others. This thread is a bit old, so not sure anyone is still paying attention, but I am looking to start a campaign, and planning on implementing an alternative timeline, just for convenience, while trying to keep all the flavor of old school WoG. My thought is to delay the kidnapping of Prince Thrommel IV until just a couple years before the "Greyhawk Wars". It will mean adjusting ages of some NPCs a little, but doubt most of my players would notice. I want to bring the PCs in as flunkies to dignitaries of the various allied countries of Veluna and Furyondy, that have all arrived in Veluna City to attend the Great Wedding and Unification. When the kidnapping happens, just days before the wedding, the party will be thrown together for the first time, (as allied nations pledge to give support in any way possible, then respond by generously "volunteering" the services of some of their aides, assistants, acolytes or apprentices; since any high ranking members are needed far more urgently in their home countries).
I like the idea of the Scarlet Brotherhood being responsible for the actual kidnapping of the Prince. The Brotherhood plans to pin the plot on Iuz, by having agents bring special Iuz troops (mercenaries, or half orcs that can reasonably pass as human)into the area where the Prince is captured. Iuz's troops believe they are actually going to be the ones that will nab the Prince. But the Brotherhood will make off with the Prince in the early morning hours, while Iuz's agents are being directed to strike the following evening. While the humanoids and mercenaries have the opportunity to cause some damage, the main objective for tSB is to make sure that proof is found that Iuz agents are active around where Thrommel was taken.
And while smart players will probably determine that the kidnappers used far more finesse to be expected from Iuz's minion, and suspect the Scarlet Brotherhood; I believe including one more player in the plot, that will not be expected. A certain member of a band of magi, who consider themselves to be caretakers of the region, takes his role as the maintainer of Neutrality, just a bit too seriously. It will be his contacts, and unparalleled skill in magic that will enable the kidnapping to go off without a hitch. And of course, he would endeavor to keep his identity a secret to all, including the Brotherhood.
My overall plan, is to have the PC party gain enough experience so they are useful in the upcoming Wars. I will probably try to keep them occupied mostly in the West, anywhere from the Shield Lands, to the Pomarj, and the very western borders of the Good nations of the region. Not going to try to railroad what they do, and I do not have a predetermined outcome of the Wars. I want the players to feel like they had an impact.
Now, back to Thrommel & Jolene. Not sure exactly what I want to do with them. I don't think I want the Prince killed, instead, kept in some type of prison, probably magical. Obviously, it will be protected from scrying...and that is one of the reasons why his captors will not kill him, believing if dead, there will be magical/divine means of contacting his spirit in the afterlife. And of course, a live Prince may prove useful... It may be good to nudge the PCs to some info that will lead to his rescue, when things are looking bleakest for the home team...
Would appreciate any input. I am not going to copy the idea of having the Prince imprisoned in ToEE. Probably keep him on the continent...maybe deep in the Pomarj, though open to suggestion. Also, while I have the first mission planned out for the PC party (an escort mission, in which they will be travelling across the Veluna plains, with Iuz agents trying to intercept them), I am not quite sure what to do with them immediately after. The War will probably start some months after the kidnapping, but unrest will certainly be growing. Perhaps I need to accelerate the timeline, and get the armies moving immediately? A PC party would make good scouts/special ops type troops, even at low levels. Or are there ideas of what would keep them busy, in the aftermath of the kidnapping, even though they will be far too low level, to have a direct effect on events, for the time being?
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Post by Scott on Feb 20, 2015 13:09:36 GMT -5
That's pretty wide open. If you want the party to be involved in the big picture from the get go, then scouts is an obvious choice. The where would depend on how you want the wars to unfold. Investigate the obvious rumblings. Investigate the unrelated rumblings that end up being related rumblings, like an ally or secret force preparing for a surprise attack on a second front. It's still open to pretty much anything.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 22, 2015 15:53:00 GMT -5
The Greyhawk Wars is some kind of diet version of the events of the Gord the Rogue series without the elements that would make it happen (the theorparts, alignments of superbeings, etc.). Moving forward in a World of Greyhawk campaign, I think that the Tharizdun storyline from GREYHAWK ADVENTURES and GORD THE ROGUE should end differently if you want a viable campaign world. Anything post-Gygax is not as open as when he developing it and following a pace that kept gameplay in mind. I think to follow the philosophy of Greyhawk (prior to it being taken over by the TSR corporation as a property to do something with) one must have a lot of openness for input to move it forward. The FROM THE ASHES campaign setup isn't something worth the value of the 1980 and 1983 campaign packages. It just gets lost and in an "unsettling setting" that lacks the vibrance of the spirit of the world for D&D by D&D.
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Post by dakotastrider on Feb 23, 2015 12:33:59 GMT -5
I enjoyed the Gord books very much, and I am sure they have had some influence on my play and DMing. I think the ending of the Gord series, showed that it was just one possible ending, in a universe of parallel universes. So, in my version of the world, things may be just a little big less "fantastic". Gord after all, was basically a superhero, and ended up being a demigod. While I would never rule out a PC of having the potential to have the same type of potential at the end of his/her career; I am not going to DM as if the whole party is a bunch of potential demigods rubbing shoulders with all of the Who's Who of the campaign world. The original timeline of historical events, with a couple of personal adjustments, works fine for me. The "From the Ashes" campaign material is also another alternative ending. "My" Greyhawk War, will undoubtedly have a far different ending, than the one it describes. Yet, there is much from that material that I find useful. Anything that helps flesh out such a massive world, has things that can be used. New NPC's, locations, political plots and other such material that I don't have to create from scratch make my job easier. Just a matter of choosing what works, and what doesn't work for my campaign.
Of course, I am not the type of DM that is as good at "winging" things on the fly, as many others. So, I like to plan things out, in as much detail as possible, and the more data I have to draw from, the better. Even material that I eventually discard, may show me a path I don't want to follow. Would have by far preferred to see what EEG's vision for Greyhawk history, past the point of which he left it. But have to work with the tools that are at hand.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 24, 2015 19:53:35 GMT -5
One of the campaign ideas I've always wanted to run -- and maybe I still will someday -- is based on Furyondy. My idea was for a high level PC to be granted a border fief in the Vesve Forest shortly before Iuz' forces go on the offensive again in the upper third of the Vesve. "This is your reward, for all of your achievements and service to the Realm..." And then use the timeline EGG developed in the FTSS articles in the DRAGON, as well as the novel ARTIFACT OF EVIL to flesh out events going on in the background (576-579 CY). Of course, that is kind of mean to have a player be granted a fief that turns out to be right on the border march between Furyondy and Iuz, but hey, that's what being a high-level adventurer is all about.
I had never really decided what to do about Prince Thrommel -- other than to just continue to have him be missing, unless the players either rescue him -- or stake him -- in the ToEE!
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