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Iuz
May 25, 2009 1:35:03 GMT -5
Post by Merkholz on May 25, 2009 1:35:03 GMT -5
Isn't Perrenland mostly Flan as well? IMO the racial groupings would still be more or less entirely intact if it hadn't been for the migrations due to the Cataclysms. This means that areas where the Suel or Oeridian highways were nonexistant still retains their racial makeup - even until 576 CY. I assume that the distant corner where Iuz hammered out his lands were such areas and thus his Flan denomination could be rather recent. 500 years is ancient in regard to his human side after all!
M
PS Making everything super-old and super-powerful is a dangerous road to travel. It leads to the Dark (FR) Path! DS
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Iuz
May 25, 2009 8:43:54 GMT -5
Post by Scott on May 25, 2009 8:43:54 GMT -5
It's not a setting made up entirely of humans. It's a world that the humans share with dwarves and elves, which is another reason why I don't think 500 years would be that impressive. Also, there's no story of the origin of the Land of Iuz, like there is with most of the other countries in the guide, which, to me, implies it's always been there, or at least it pre-dates the migrations.
I'm not talking about 'everything'. I'm talking about a god who is called the Old One.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Iuz
May 25, 2009 12:48:47 GMT -5
Post by GT on May 25, 2009 12:48:47 GMT -5
Yes, but as the spawn of Iggwilv and Graz'zt, he shouldn't have been around all that long--and he could've simply moved in and carved out his domain in a region previously dominated by humanoids (extremely likely!), much as the Horned Society moved into and took over part of Iuz's territory during his imprisonment. And although powerful, Iuz isn't even on the same caliber as, say, Demogorgon or Orcus.
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Iuz
May 25, 2009 13:22:37 GMT -5
Post by Scott on May 25, 2009 13:22:37 GMT -5
That's the whole rub, a lot of that later revisiting is what screwed the timeline up. As the spawn of iggwilv, it doesn't make that much sense, but that wasn't how the guide was written. I like the feel I got from the guide better. I'd rather make the Iggwilv angle fit that than the other way around.
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Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Iuz
May 25, 2009 13:46:27 GMT -5
Post by GT on May 25, 2009 13:46:27 GMT -5
Well, I could make an argument for as old as a thousand years (but I won't in my campaign ^__^), because if the Suel/Oerid/Bakluni migrations named him The Ancient One, that's when they could've first encountered him. As to the Flan; they are fierce but primitive and I think that given their proximity to Iuz's realm, even given the curbing hand of Iggwilv he would have conquered those lands in the interim. In all fairness, you are correct in your assessment--Gary had originally just given a vague "ancientness" to Iuz that exceeded what he back-filled later (as I've said, Gary hated timelines... I LOVED 'em!). But backfill he did, so it really comes down to personal interpretation. You are correct given Gary's original ambiguity; but I can claim validation given Gary's coloring inside the lines later. Whatever works, I s'pose! ^__^
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Iuz
May 26, 2009 4:09:38 GMT -5
Post by Merkholz on May 26, 2009 4:09:38 GMT -5
Well, considering the way that Gary kept things vague and kept adding bits as the published campaign evolved I'm sure we can all agree that there isn't a True answer.
I'm having trouble with Iuz being a millenia or more of age. We know that Iuz' might grows at the end of the 5th century which means that his might was less before that. So, with the aid of a 1000-year-old witch of great power, a demon prince and lots of humanoids Iuz the demi-god managed to do what in 900 years? Much, much less than what the fleeing, migrating Oeridians managed to do in a much shorter time.
IMO it makes much better sense in having Iuz be a few centuries old with rather humble beginnings. Iggwilv shouldn't be so old either and her success should be built upon the might of others (standing on the shoulders of giants) rather than any inherent, initial prowess. To each his own.
M
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Iuz
Jun 2, 2009 16:25:45 GMT -5
Post by amalric on Jun 2, 2009 16:25:45 GMT -5
I go with the "few centuries" approach, too. I'd suggest that "The Old One" gained his moniker by ageing drastically both before and during his ascension to godhood, perhaps as a consequence of his rising power...
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Iuz
Jun 2, 2009 22:25:13 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jun 2, 2009 22:25:13 GMT -5
Let's not forget the "by-blow of Orcus" from the Dragon 67 article, too: no reason to say he's got to be Graz'zt's or Iggwilv's spawn....
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Iuz
Jun 2, 2009 22:55:06 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 2, 2009 22:55:06 GMT -5
I once did a sketch of a timeline with Iuz originating sometime during the rise of the Great Kingdom (circa 500 years old), and existing as a kind of bogeyman threat in the fringes of the North, in regions the Great Kingdom never quite conquered. I figured if dragons could be considered "ancient" at around 400 years old, a menacing and mysterious old man type character could be considered the "Old One" at around the same age... sort of like a reverse-Gandalf, a wandering stormcrow who stirs things up and never seems to age from generation to generation. But as far as what feels right for his age, in an S&S setting, it's just a matter of taste. Maybe its better just to keep it ambiguous and mysterious ("No one knows how old the Old One truly is... some legends date him back to the Rise of the Great Kingdom, some say he is even older, and was here before the Men of the West marched into the Flanaess").
I interpreted the "rise" to power cited in the Guide to indicate Iuz openly declaring a nation named after himself (rapidly growing to include Iuz and what later became the Horned Society), partly from the remains of the Northern Regions, which were once considered a part of Furyondy. I don't think it was ever specified what the Northern Territories were but I took that to mean lands north of the Whyestil Lake (i.e., north of Furyondy proper). I had imagined the 479 CY "rise" as something like the last bastions of the north being finally overrun from a horde coming out of the Howling Hills and Cold Marshes...
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Iuz
Jun 3, 2009 6:11:42 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 3, 2009 6:11:42 GMT -5
Glad to see you posting again. I was surprised you hadn't chimed in on any of the discussions lately.
I've done several Iuz timelines. The only reason I can think of to make him c. 500 years old is to make the Iggwilv timeline jive a little better. But other than that, all the text I am aware of implies a much older Iuz. Being called "the Old", the "Ages longer" line, the lack of any information on the origin of the Land of Iuz in the post migration era. This line from the Gord story recently quoted: "It seemed as if many great beings and powerful persons had conspired directly against him of late—the last century, in actual time, but to luz this was lately. " There's nothing specific, it's just the feeling I get from the details.
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Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Iuz
Jun 3, 2009 17:59:48 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 3, 2009 17:59:48 GMT -5
Pshaaw! When you're getting towards 50, anything in the last decade is "lately"! ^__^
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Iuz
Jun 3, 2009 21:45:27 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jun 3, 2009 21:45:27 GMT -5
I'm with you Scott---I like the idea of Iuz being an old Flan bogeyman from "before the dark times... before the Suel!" (so to speak).
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Iuz
Jun 3, 2009 22:44:55 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 3, 2009 22:44:55 GMT -5
I think that would be a more obvious choice, if you didn't have to mesh his timeline with the Iggwilv material.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Iuz
Jun 4, 2009 17:58:01 GMT -5
Post by GT on Jun 4, 2009 17:58:01 GMT -5
I think it amounts to A) choosing one or the other to suit your timeline (you've seen mine! ;D ) or B) doing the "two Iuz scenario--which I'm still contemplating. Could have interesting possibilities for a certain half-brother of Iuz in my world... ^__^
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Iuz
Jun 8, 2009 11:42:45 GMT -5
Post by grodog on Jun 8, 2009 11:42:45 GMT -5
You could always have the "two Iuz" scenario be some sort of gate/time shift too: he was ancient, got caught in some trap/demiplane/within a gate/etc., and didn't emerge again until several thousand years later (a bit like what happens to classical heroes who sojourn in Faerie, for example).
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Iuz
Jun 8, 2009 20:06:20 GMT -5
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 8, 2009 20:06:20 GMT -5
Glad to see you posting again. I was surprised you hadn't chimed in on any of the discussions lately. I've done several Iuz timelines. The only reason I can think of to make him c. 500 years old is to make the Iggwilv timeline jive a little better. But other than that, all the text I am aware of implies a much older Iuz. Being called "the Old", the "Ages longer" line, the lack of any information on the origin of the Land of Iuz in the post migration era. This line from the Gord story recently quoted: "It seemed as if many great beings and powerful persons had conspired directly against him of late—the last century, in actual time, but to luz this was lately. " There's nothing specific, it's just the feeling I get from the details. Yeah, I'd like to post more but lately my work and travel schedule has been crazy. I'm in Charlotte right now. Tomorrow I'll be in Atlanta. Last week I was in Chicago. Next week I'll fly into Indianapolis. The constant travel and preparation for meetings saps all my energy and time, lately. I guess I shouldn't complain -- at least I'm working. Oddly enough, someone on GREYtalk had once suggested for Iuz to be born in the 400's or 300's CY, and I said that didn't really fit and used the same quotes you cite above to make that point. I don't really see how Iuz being 500 years old as opposed to a thousand years or older would be a better fit for the Iggwilv timeline. Although I think the person who was trying to suggest Iuz be born within a mere century before his "rise to power" (479 CY) was thinking that.
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Iuz
Jun 8, 2009 20:18:25 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 8, 2009 20:18:25 GMT -5
I don't really see how Iuz being 500 years old as opposed to a thousand years or older would be a better fit for the Iggwilv timeline. Although I think the person who was trying to suggest Iuz be born within a mere century before his "rise to power" (479 CY) was thinking that. Because if Iuz is younger, Iggwilv would be younger, and that's two beings that you don't have to explain what they were doing for all that time they were around before they showed up on a timeline.
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Iuz
Jun 9, 2009 2:09:23 GMT -5
Post by Merkholz on Jun 9, 2009 2:09:23 GMT -5
Yup, the addition of Iggwilv in the mix really screws up the ancientness of Iuz. If Iuz is 1000 years old then Iggwilv must be older and that definitely makes her something else than a human for a very long time without any impact on the Flanaess.
Sudden idea: What if Iggwilv is Louhi is Baba Yaga etc. That could explain her lack of presence on Oerth. She has to make an appearance on an endless string of realities. She moves from plane to plane and Earth to Oerth never staying long enough to make an impact. She breeds with anyone(thing) and leaves her brood to fend for themselves and comes back once in a while to see what options take root. Iuz was one of the more successful youngins but he had a lot of maturing to do and only in the 5th century CY was there any point in a real effort in empire-building.
M
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Iuz
Jun 9, 2009 6:18:43 GMT -5
Post by Scott on Jun 9, 2009 6:18:43 GMT -5
She definitely could be a plane hopper. I’ve always assumed that she reached quasi-deity status around the time Iuz was born, or maybe shortly after, and then spent her time exploring the planes, and causing trouble on a more localized level. Iuz was pretty much on his own, but managed to do OK for himself. At some point, she discovered info on Tsojcanth, and decided to try to find his caverns, which she did. The knowledge she gained from the discovery of the caverns bumped up her power. At this point she started thinking of ruling a realm of her own. In addition to conquering territory on her own, she helped Iuz build a more powerful kingdom of his own, in order to draw some heat away from her. Similar to Iuz’s thought with the ToEE. Things were moving along nicely, until she accidentally freed Graz’zt.
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Falconer
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Iuz
Jun 9, 2009 14:03:15 GMT -5
Post by Falconer on Jun 9, 2009 14:03:15 GMT -5
It seems to me that it would be pure fan-wankery to NOT in some fashion directly link Iuz's begetting with Graz'zt's imprisonment by Iggwilv. The most obvious implication to me is that she "forced" him in his captivity. Or am I alone in thinking that?
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