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Post by geneweigel on Jan 7, 2008 14:41:04 GMT -5
For a name of the knights of the Horned Society, how about ELITE DEATH GUARD from the Minifigs line? That would be right in line as they were cavalry. So was it "elite DEATH GUARD cavalry" or "ELITE DEATH GUARD" cavalry? Or perhaps even "ELITE DEATH" guard cavalry? DAMMIT! I just checked and there was elite death guard footmen as well. I saw these back in1981 in DisneyWorld village (of all places) but I never owned a single one there were pictures of these on EBAY some time sago and there was a store that had some but all those links are dead. Anybody recall any notable features of that miniature?
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 7, 2008 17:51:15 GMT -5
"Sister Mary"? And "BaronFukh" (pronounced 'fewk' no doubt? ^__^) You know that you're going to the Hell that I deny exists, don't you Gene?? ;D
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 7, 2008 18:09:16 GMT -5
( Gene mutters to himself) Its a good thing I didn't show him the illustrations!
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 8, 2008 10:57:57 GMT -5
Aha! As Gary puts it:
I HAVE SUSSED OUT A DARK SECRET
The secret of the Horned Society!
It is unconquerable except by those of evil bent. Even the lands of Iuz are conquerable (see "Northern reaches") but this place displaced the path of the Oeridians and when they came back (see Furyondy) they took over the "northern reaches but didn't grab the much closer and more dangerous "humanoid stronghold". This land mass directly interferred with domination of the Veng. So why?
The answer is to the East in Riftcanyon.
The Eastern rift was conquerable but the Western rift couldn't.
Now picture yourself underground facing the Western Rift where is this going to take you to?
The Horned Society. Its simple. There is a plethora of humanoids and its unconquerable by non-evils.
The Horned Society is the land of many dungeons.
Thats the answer.
Their trade is unknown yet Iuz is known. Why? Why do the hierarchs threaten all trade (see Veng;Whyestil lake)? Because they have underground trade.
It would make sense that hell worshippers would make their base on a highway offramp to the underworld.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 11:15:23 GMT -5
Aha! I have another lost secret of the Horned Society...
Small flind lairs are found more often than the larger goblin, hobgoblin, kobold or orc lairs on the surface.
It took quite a bit of number crunching to get that result!
Lairs per 30 mile open plain hex in HS
Flind 3.1 Goblin None Hobgoblin 1.7 Orcs 1.5 Kobold None
Note that the largest population in in the combined above ground and underground of the HS is goblins believe it or not!
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 10, 2008 17:06:51 GMT -5
I believe it, since a high number of the infantry in the Host of the Hierarchs (from the FTSS article) are goblins.
I enjoyed reading your list of Hierarchs. Toom-Phet the Fat... not bad! Brutus Malius is actually along the lines of what I think would fit the Hierarchs: Roman names and titles sound deliberately archaic -- exactly the sort of pomp and grandeur I'd expect from the Hierarchs.
I did get a chuckle out of "Sister Mary" -- no chance you went to Catholic School, eh?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 20:02:57 GMT -5
Yes, for 8 years.
I should really scan these pics from the sheets when I get a chance.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 20:26:36 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 10, 2008 20:32:49 GMT -5
I didn't intend to reuse my brother's NPC though! As you can see!
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Post by Scott on Jan 11, 2008 10:18:38 GMT -5
I went and asked Gary about the Iuz minifig:
"I had evil halflings as his henchmen to underscore just how vile he was--much the same as the malign dwarf Obmi assisting giants.
Gary"
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 11, 2008 11:01:51 GMT -5
I forgot to reiterate when I mentioned the "Circles of Iuz" earlier. In the novels the Circles are jam-packed with the "softer" demi-humans for spies including a halfling that is mentioned. Note, remember Obmi was part of this for a while as well? I believe in "Gnollbardhawk" they call this group the Boneheart even though it was called the circles in the novels where Sargent sourced them from. In my old notes from the novel the demihumans are in the outer circle and in the story he seems to kill these circle agents off on a regular basis so perhaps at one point they had more halflings.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 12, 2008 16:55:33 GMT -5
Great pics, Gene, I love the illustrations. I feel like I'm in 1981 again.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 12, 2008 17:58:14 GMT -5
Yeah, looking at those old sheets is funny because I have exactly the same outlook now that I had then. My brother wanted rulers beefed up out of the league of pcs but I didn't want them to be lubed like that so I usually would assign a broad level (comparable to the other rulers levels) and leave it that. Giving them equipment and arms during the session. His writeups were always armed to the teeth. I think that the one guy having "18-18-18-18-18-18" was a bit of humor on my part as it was rare that I would fill out the stats.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 23, 2008 10:50:34 GMT -5
I was looking for a lost discussion on Iuz's age and I found this instead: a direct quote from Gary on the Horned Society's admixture of alignments as seen in the novels. I related a pile of information in it and he responded:
Gary wrote:
Then I replied:
Then Gary replied:
Then I replied:
Then Gary replied:
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 23, 2008 19:55:11 GMT -5
Sounds like Gary doesn't recognize any incompatibility between a Folio-era "LE Horned Society" and the Gord books "LE Horned Society with some NE leaders." I get the idea Gary is essentially saying LE can be the predominant alignment of the Horned Society, and perhaps even most of the thirteen Hierarchs might be diabolical in their religion and strictly LE, but the three greatest can be NE of various shades, without there being any true contradiction.
Once, when conversing with EGG about the Horned Society, he mentioned wanting to introduce Baphomet as one of the deities involved with them... presumably because of his 'horned' nature as lord of minotaurs. When I quizzically mentioned Baphomet was a demon lord and "deviltry was the religion of the Hierarchs", Gary replied with something like: "Bah! Don't be so tied to the system!"
I guess I can't help it -- I'm tied to the system. If the alignment system for AD&D is the framework, I try to fit my rationales into that. And if deviltry is the religion of the Horned Society, I think they would be averse to worshipping demons in any major way. It just seemed to me that there are more than enough devils to flesh out the HS, and other lands might be better suited to a mishmash of alignments. I still prefer a strong LE devil-worshipping Horned Society strongly contrasted with the neighboring CE Iuz, and the Bandit Kingdoms to the east fitting the bill for the hodgepodge of various entities worshipped, due to that region being of a wider spectrum of alignments.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 23, 2008 22:43:58 GMT -5
Its easy for him to work the alignments, as the creator of it, he knows more about alignment's potentials and limits than the general public or later T$R's consensus. So when he says stuff like that it throws me off as well. He definitely made me give up "alignment think" for everything. I may have similiar views on many, many, many gods like Gary but my alignment view was very rigid until I started talking with him.
Maybe an alignment study is at hand! I'll have to dig up all references by Gygax on alignment. Maybe tomorrow.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jan 24, 2008 7:23:53 GMT -5
Heh! Baphomet seems "fun" from a 'Templar-inside-joke' kind of way, but otherwise--no, it soesn't fit well in the Horned Society as it was presented. I don't play any demon-worshippers as Heirarchs...
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Post by Scott on Jan 24, 2008 7:28:40 GMT -5
Same here, I stick to Deviltry, and any other alignments present are mercenary and opportunistic types.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 24, 2008 8:46:12 GMT -5
Yeah, the religion thing is a tough cookie to crack in the D&D format. No matter how many times you look at it, it doesn't seem to make sense when he put a magnifying glass to it in the novels. I think the answer is going to be found in the Dragon articles of his.
Here's THE DRAGON #9 (SEPTEMBER 1977) "VARIED PLAYER CHARACTER AND NON-PLAYER CHARACTER ALIGNMENT IN THE DUNGEONS & DRAGONS CAMPAIGN" by Gary Gygax:
Theres another article on evil that I have to find.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 24, 2008 9:08:28 GMT -5
This one explains evil dynamics "EVIL: LAW VS. CHAOS" by Gary Gygax from THE DRAGON #28(Aug 1979):
This all seems like he is talking directly about the Horned Society.
Seems like they would be very permissive of a CE religion in HS but for their own ends. Right?
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